AI at work: Staff 'hired and fired by algorithm'
25/03/2021 | news | technology | 112
The TUC is calling for fresh legal protections to cover artificial intelligence in the workplace.
1
25/03/2021 10:28:52 9 0
bbc
If a company cannot be bothered to invest human time is selecting an appropriate workforce, then perhaps it disrespects humanity and so should be avoided?
45
25/03/2021 13:09:15 3 2
bbc
But there is also a lot of bias with people who interview.
2
25/03/2021 10:31:33 33 0
bbc
BT - tried this on me. I withdrew from process. If they can’t be bothered to have a person to interview me, i can’t be bothered to attend their so called interview.

I took their hiring practices as a reflection of their workplace. So no thank.
23
25/03/2021 11:50:39 4 34
bbc
Sounds like they dodged a bullet there by not hiring you.
3
25/03/2021 10:46:06 7 5
bbc
Another ‘could be’ headline by the BBC.

It is not news but speculation and hearsay.

People are not made redundant. It is the job that is made redundant. There are strict legal requirements concerning having a criteria, consultation and time. Nothing to do with a computer program.
24
25/03/2021 11:53:11 1 5
bbc
Like the whole ID card proposal, it's those with the most to fear that are opposed to it, and prefer to rely on doing 'favours' for the boss to keep them in a job.
100
26/03/2021 16:38:03 0 0
bbc
Another report of what is most assuredly already happening, as explained in the article. Ask any recruitment agency how they filter the 1000s of CVs down to the 10 they will actually read - guess what, it's a computer.

People are being selected to be dismissed. If 100 jobs exist and 10 are made redundant, the very real question is; which 10? Those the computer chose, based on programmer bias.
4
25/03/2021 10:51:31 3 8
bbc
Is the TUC relevant in the modern world?

I think not.
22
25/03/2021 11:49:16 7 2
bbc
Like folk who use random Latin phrases to pretend they're intelligent?

I think not.
65
25/03/2021 15:59:49 1 1
bbc
More relevant than you, based on the drivel you post most of the time...
5
25/03/2021 10:53:14 0 0
bbc
Protection needs to be brought in. As companies find more ways to save and make money, some of the benefits should be passed onwards.

The most common job we see lost to AI are Call Centres, where you no longer get to speak to a human. Example: We could replace our Call Centre and save a large sum of money, but our customers would hate it, and it's morally wrong.
6
25/03/2021 10:54:54 25 1
bbc
I have long suspected that HR could be replaced with a laptop
7
25/03/2021 10:56:57 19 0
bbc
With ours you could manage with a ZX81.
6
25/03/2021 10:54:54 25 1
bbc
I have long suspected that HR could be replaced with a laptop
7
25/03/2021 10:56:57 19 0
bbc
With ours you could manage with a ZX81.
30
25/03/2021 12:11:51 4 1
bbc
Just make sure the RAM extension block is properly supported of course!
8
25/03/2021 11:06:56 8 4
bbc
AI should definitely be used to monitor MPs' effectiveness.
9
Bob
25/03/2021 11:09:35 4 3
bbc
The headline makes it sound like it is already happening. The article is that is merely could happen.

Very misleading.

Besides, you can't fire someone without cause. If a 'mutant algorithm' decided it was time or someone to go if that's an invalid position there is plenty of law on the employee's side.
101
26/03/2021 16:40:59 0 0
bbc
Luckily, you read past the headline. Well done. All headlines do the same; so stop crying about them. Write to every single newspaper since time began, with a quill.

You didn't understand the article. There is zero law on the employees side if the company followed a lawful, however irrational, basis for selection.

The "cause" is redundancy. Who got picked is a function of programmer bias.
10
25/03/2021 10:56:41 21 3
bbc
Sadly this merely automates what's been going on for decades since companies were foolish enough to have HR departments.

Years ago we did things properly. The people with the brains, who knew the business did the hiring and firing. There were a few admin staff who handled stuff like pensions, payroll and holidays, but had no say in hiring and firing. Things worked vastly better then!
21
25/03/2021 11:47:36 1 17
bbc
So you prefer the purely subjective boss decisions? You play golf with him then I take it.
Ambulance chasing lawyers love taking up cases where idiots that know how to make a widget think they know employment law and do an Alan Sugar - cash in the bank.
35
25/03/2021 12:25:57 2 0
bbc
The thing with AI though is that they can all point to the machine and say not my fault. The ultimately may be its chief use, in passing the blame until no one has to accept any of it.
Another side of me points out that bureaucrats are already soulless little machines so it doesn't really make any difference. :)
11
Rob
25/03/2021 11:24:14 10 4
bbc
I experienced a very frustrating computer says no situation. I tried to verify my ID using a phone app to alter my DLVA licence. It refused to verify me. I had to send off the data using a letter instead, The DVLA wouldn't say why the app didn't verify me. They just said its very secure. That is the sort of irritating AI we are up against and it is going to get worse.
12
25/03/2021 11:25:26 4 5
bbc
This is actually a good thing. There is no bias in AI, so no favouritism. Yes it removes the human element but in some cases it is a good thing. Imagine going back to work post lockdown and being faced with redundancies and even though you are a good worker someone else is kept on because they are mates with the boss but lazy as F.
14
QED
25/03/2021 11:31:26 8 3
bbc
Wrong, there are often inbuilt bias in A1, as garbage in creates garbage out. The A1 is often trained using data from past decisions by humans and guess what they contain bias which is then baked into the A1.
25
25/03/2021 11:55:05 3 0
bbc
Who do you think programs the AI? AI are built using machine learning, meaning they use previous, in this case human, data to make informed decisions.

Human decisions will always be tainted with some sort of bias, it's nigh-on inescapable.
29
25/03/2021 12:09:08 2 0
bbc
Depends on the programmer in the first instance. Decision trees can be frought with unintentional bias if not thought through thoroughly.
34
25/03/2021 12:20:31 2 0
bbc
As an expert I would say there is always bias in AI. Its almost impossible to completely remove it even with in depth systematic analysis.
13
25/03/2021 11:25:58 4 0
bbc
They have been for years it was called the HR department
16
MB
25/03/2021 11:34:00 9 0
bbc
Sort of, most if the time you wouldn't see intelligence in HR
12
25/03/2021 11:25:26 4 5
bbc
This is actually a good thing. There is no bias in AI, so no favouritism. Yes it removes the human element but in some cases it is a good thing. Imagine going back to work post lockdown and being faced with redundancies and even though you are a good worker someone else is kept on because they are mates with the boss but lazy as F.
14
QED
25/03/2021 11:31:26 8 3
bbc
Wrong, there are often inbuilt bias in A1, as garbage in creates garbage out. The A1 is often trained using data from past decisions by humans and guess what they contain bias which is then baked into the A1.
19
25/03/2021 11:44:14 1 2
bbc
Does the M1 or M25 make better decisions than the old A1?
15
MB
25/03/2021 11:33:30 3 3
bbc
it will work as well as machine calculated credit score..
13
25/03/2021 11:25:58 4 0
bbc
They have been for years it was called the HR department
16
MB
25/03/2021 11:34:00 9 0
bbc
Sort of, most if the time you wouldn't see intelligence in HR
18
25/03/2021 11:42:49 1 3
bbc
And you trust the old boy/girl network to make decisions? Selection criteria for firing: golf handicap....
17
25/03/2021 11:36:53 3 5
bbc
is this the same algorithm that the tories invented to dismiss cummins, and ministers who voted against fred scuttle johnson on the brexit.
16
MB
25/03/2021 11:34:00 9 0
bbc
Sort of, most if the time you wouldn't see intelligence in HR
18
25/03/2021 11:42:49 1 3
bbc
And you trust the old boy/girl network to make decisions? Selection criteria for firing: golf handicap....
14
QED
25/03/2021 11:31:26 8 3
bbc
Wrong, there are often inbuilt bias in A1, as garbage in creates garbage out. The A1 is often trained using data from past decisions by humans and guess what they contain bias which is then baked into the A1.
19
25/03/2021 11:44:14 1 2
bbc
Does the M1 or M25 make better decisions than the old A1?
20
25/03/2021 11:46:41 9 3
bbc
Businesses will always be pushing through to the perfect utopian model, which is just business owners and AI machines generating all your profit and loss. It is for Governments to decide how to strike the balance. Personally, I would tax every AI software agent as if it were more like a human being. If computers want to operate more like humans, we should start taxing them like humans as well.
26
25/03/2021 11:57:43 2 10
bbc
You are advocating that we should be paying a salary to a machine for it to be taxed on, like humans are? What would you suggest the minimum wage should be for a machine? Would it also then be entitled to holidays? What about the working time directive? How far do you see this idea of treating machines like humans going, or was it just a random thought that crossed your mind after a lager or 3?
10
25/03/2021 10:56:41 21 3
bbc
Sadly this merely automates what's been going on for decades since companies were foolish enough to have HR departments.

Years ago we did things properly. The people with the brains, who knew the business did the hiring and firing. There were a few admin staff who handled stuff like pensions, payroll and holidays, but had no say in hiring and firing. Things worked vastly better then!
21
25/03/2021 11:47:36 1 17
bbc
So you prefer the purely subjective boss decisions? You play golf with him then I take it.
Ambulance chasing lawyers love taking up cases where idiots that know how to make a widget think they know employment law and do an Alan Sugar - cash in the bank.
36
25/03/2021 12:26:07 9 2
bbc
What about the prejudices of HR staff who don't have the background or intellectual capacity to judge someone's fitness for a technical position?

I've seen HR departments block appointments of very bright applicants only to give the job to lazy, and totally incompetent ones.
50
25/03/2021 13:18:43 7 0
bbc
"So you prefer the purely subjective boss decisions? "

Since HR works simply at the behest of the boss, all that it means is that decisions are pushed down

HR does not work for the employees in the lower rungs, it works for the bosses
4
25/03/2021 10:51:31 3 8
bbc
Is the TUC relevant in the modern world?

I think not.
22
25/03/2021 11:49:16 7 2
bbc
Like folk who use random Latin phrases to pretend they're intelligent?

I think not.
2
25/03/2021 10:31:33 33 0
bbc
BT - tried this on me. I withdrew from process. If they can’t be bothered to have a person to interview me, i can’t be bothered to attend their so called interview.

I took their hiring practices as a reflection of their workplace. So no thank.
23
25/03/2021 11:50:39 4 34
bbc
Sounds like they dodged a bullet there by not hiring you.
32
25/03/2021 12:12:16 8 0
bbc
He's right, you're wrong. AI has spoken
3
25/03/2021 10:46:06 7 5
bbc
Another ‘could be’ headline by the BBC.

It is not news but speculation and hearsay.

People are not made redundant. It is the job that is made redundant. There are strict legal requirements concerning having a criteria, consultation and time. Nothing to do with a computer program.
24
25/03/2021 11:53:11 1 5
bbc
Like the whole ID card proposal, it's those with the most to fear that are opposed to it, and prefer to rely on doing 'favours' for the boss to keep them in a job.
47
25/03/2021 13:11:32 2 1
bbc
Never heard of scope creep?

Despite the lack of any intention of vaccine passports being used to live day2day there are again advocates that say pubs should be able to use vaccine passports to open.
12
25/03/2021 11:25:26 4 5
bbc
This is actually a good thing. There is no bias in AI, so no favouritism. Yes it removes the human element but in some cases it is a good thing. Imagine going back to work post lockdown and being faced with redundancies and even though you are a good worker someone else is kept on because they are mates with the boss but lazy as F.
25
25/03/2021 11:55:05 3 0
bbc
Who do you think programs the AI? AI are built using machine learning, meaning they use previous, in this case human, data to make informed decisions.

Human decisions will always be tainted with some sort of bias, it's nigh-on inescapable.
20
25/03/2021 11:46:41 9 3
bbc
Businesses will always be pushing through to the perfect utopian model, which is just business owners and AI machines generating all your profit and loss. It is for Governments to decide how to strike the balance. Personally, I would tax every AI software agent as if it were more like a human being. If computers want to operate more like humans, we should start taxing them like humans as well.
26
25/03/2021 11:57:43 2 10
bbc
You are advocating that we should be paying a salary to a machine for it to be taxed on, like humans are? What would you suggest the minimum wage should be for a machine? Would it also then be entitled to holidays? What about the working time directive? How far do you see this idea of treating machines like humans going, or was it just a random thought that crossed your mind after a lager or 3?
39
25/03/2021 12:37:10 1 1
bbc
Obviously we will not be pay a machine food vouchers, but at some point, the economy will stall with too many people not working. If we are to work less hours but maintain a quality of life, then the Software Agents now doing our jobs need to contribute to that welfare. Do you understand this, or do you need to order a case of 12 online and delivered to you to see it functioning in action.
27
25/03/2021 12:01:19 16 2
bbc
I wish the media would stop this use of AI, it is not AI, but simply a smarter algorithm which looks at a lot more data than older algorithms, they still have to be programmed on which questions to be answered.
31
25/03/2021 12:12:01 11 2
bbc
Sadly that's exactly what a lot of modern AI is. I use the old terminology - 'Weak AI' verses 'Strong AI'.
The real thing - Strong AI is still as rare as hens teeth today and even the most most advanced systems still follow the weak mould.. Completely mindless and mostly less 'intelligent' than a fly or even a bacterium.
(I work in Strong AI BTW.)
28
25/03/2021 12:04:46 0 0
bbc
The old problem of good AI verses bad AI. Unfortunately many of the bad uses come as 'low hanging' fruit & easy to profit from, and many of the good uses are harder to make work & less profitable at the end.

We are at the point now where many creative tasks may be supplemented or taken over by AI within ten to 15 years. Now is the time where the world & people with morals need a grasp on this.
12
25/03/2021 11:25:26 4 5
bbc
This is actually a good thing. There is no bias in AI, so no favouritism. Yes it removes the human element but in some cases it is a good thing. Imagine going back to work post lockdown and being faced with redundancies and even though you are a good worker someone else is kept on because they are mates with the boss but lazy as F.
29
25/03/2021 12:09:08 2 0
bbc
Depends on the programmer in the first instance. Decision trees can be frought with unintentional bias if not thought through thoroughly.
7
25/03/2021 10:56:57 19 0
bbc
With ours you could manage with a ZX81.
30
25/03/2021 12:11:51 4 1
bbc
Just make sure the RAM extension block is properly supported of course!
40
25/03/2021 12:41:37 2 1
bbc
Strictly an Acorn man myself, but I have seen this happen to friends. Usually after several hours typing.
27
25/03/2021 12:01:19 16 2
bbc
I wish the media would stop this use of AI, it is not AI, but simply a smarter algorithm which looks at a lot more data than older algorithms, they still have to be programmed on which questions to be answered.
31
25/03/2021 12:12:01 11 2
bbc
Sadly that's exactly what a lot of modern AI is. I use the old terminology - 'Weak AI' verses 'Strong AI'.
The real thing - Strong AI is still as rare as hens teeth today and even the most most advanced systems still follow the weak mould.. Completely mindless and mostly less 'intelligent' than a fly or even a bacterium.
(I work in Strong AI BTW.)
55
25/03/2021 13:59:59 3 0
bbc
Artificial intelligence requires the ability to learn from & use experience. An algorithm is a posh name for a program, which may may have learning capability. However most do not & are therefore at risk of built-in prejudice, depending on the rules the software is programmed to follow. This in turn depends on the person who specifies the procedure.
23
25/03/2021 11:50:39 4 34
bbc
Sounds like they dodged a bullet there by not hiring you.
32
25/03/2021 12:12:16 8 0
bbc
He's right, you're wrong. AI has spoken
33
25/03/2021 12:14:59 4 0
bbc
All too often "AI" is slapped on anything to sell it. And all too often AI translates to something more akin to Artificial Stupidity.
12
25/03/2021 11:25:26 4 5
bbc
This is actually a good thing. There is no bias in AI, so no favouritism. Yes it removes the human element but in some cases it is a good thing. Imagine going back to work post lockdown and being faced with redundancies and even though you are a good worker someone else is kept on because they are mates with the boss but lazy as F.
34
25/03/2021 12:20:31 2 0
bbc
As an expert I would say there is always bias in AI. Its almost impossible to completely remove it even with in depth systematic analysis.
10
25/03/2021 10:56:41 21 3
bbc
Sadly this merely automates what's been going on for decades since companies were foolish enough to have HR departments.

Years ago we did things properly. The people with the brains, who knew the business did the hiring and firing. There were a few admin staff who handled stuff like pensions, payroll and holidays, but had no say in hiring and firing. Things worked vastly better then!
35
25/03/2021 12:25:57 2 0
bbc
The thing with AI though is that they can all point to the machine and say not my fault. The ultimately may be its chief use, in passing the blame until no one has to accept any of it.
Another side of me points out that bureaucrats are already soulless little machines so it doesn't really make any difference. :)
21
25/03/2021 11:47:36 1 17
bbc
So you prefer the purely subjective boss decisions? You play golf with him then I take it.
Ambulance chasing lawyers love taking up cases where idiots that know how to make a widget think they know employment law and do an Alan Sugar - cash in the bank.
36
25/03/2021 12:26:07 9 2
bbc
What about the prejudices of HR staff who don't have the background or intellectual capacity to judge someone's fitness for a technical position?

I've seen HR departments block appointments of very bright applicants only to give the job to lazy, and totally incompetent ones.
37
25/03/2021 12:31:21 4 3
bbc
How the AI is trained is very important. quite of they are trained using data sets of mainly white male middle class data
46
25/03/2021 12:52:18 8 2
bbc
Since white, middle class people are the majority in the UK, why is this surprising? Unless of course, you'd like to weight it against them - an act of racism in it's self.
38
25/03/2021 12:35:16 3 7
bbc
Whatever this dreadful A1 thing is - nobody seems to have heard of it - cannot we not just simply BAN it - as it seems to be neither use nor ornament
26
25/03/2021 11:57:43 2 10
bbc
You are advocating that we should be paying a salary to a machine for it to be taxed on, like humans are? What would you suggest the minimum wage should be for a machine? Would it also then be entitled to holidays? What about the working time directive? How far do you see this idea of treating machines like humans going, or was it just a random thought that crossed your mind after a lager or 3?
39
25/03/2021 12:37:10 1 1
bbc
Obviously we will not be pay a machine food vouchers, but at some point, the economy will stall with too many people not working. If we are to work less hours but maintain a quality of life, then the Software Agents now doing our jobs need to contribute to that welfare. Do you understand this, or do you need to order a case of 12 online and delivered to you to see it functioning in action.
94
26/03/2021 13:34:23 1 0
bbc
Big corporations have been arguing strongly for lower corporation tax on the basis that their societal contribution is via employee personal taxation. So the logical conclusion when they replace people (who pay tax) with machines (who don't) that the tax shortfall needs to be made up somewhere. Your suggestion is probably the logical start point to solve the problem.
30
25/03/2021 12:11:51 4 1
bbc
Just make sure the RAM extension block is properly supported of course!
40
25/03/2021 12:41:37 2 1
bbc
Strictly an Acorn man myself, but I have seen this happen to friends. Usually after several hours typing.
41
25/03/2021 12:44:55 3 10
bbc
And what exactly constitutes AI? How complex does the algorithm need to be? Does it need to have a 'learning' phase? Can it be an expert system? Does the TUC even have a remote idea about technology or did they get it from a YouTube video they saw once on a lunchtime break?
49
25/03/2021 13:17:33 3 4
bbc
"Does the TUC even have a remote idea about technology" not in my experience.
53
jch
25/03/2021 13:48:01 0 0
bbc
I assume it depends on the job. Some might only need to know which end of the broom to hold.
103
26/03/2021 16:48:44 0 0
bbc
Good questions, followed by a nonsense anti-TUC rant.

Clearly you don't know what a Union is, nor what it has done for you and everyone else.

Do you like having holidays, safe workplace, ventilation, heating, fire escapes?
42
25/03/2021 12:46:47 5 5
bbc
AI will be great for performance reviews and catch those employees, who doesn’t work properly but stay in the job for flattering the Managers continously.
43
25/03/2021 12:53:44 3 11
bbc
trouble with this is it is now normal process, no EU laws to protect employees.
typical tory process signed off, the UK has the worst employment rights in Europe, they will get worse under the tories, welcome to the third world working.
44
25/03/2021 13:01:14 7 3
bbc
Poorly performing employees should be trained and guided, if they still aren't up to the job then logically they should be moved on to something more suitable. AI or not.
1
25/03/2021 10:28:52 9 0
bbc
If a company cannot be bothered to invest human time is selecting an appropriate workforce, then perhaps it disrespects humanity and so should be avoided?
45
25/03/2021 13:09:15 3 2
bbc
But there is also a lot of bias with people who interview.
97
26/03/2021 13:58:43 1 0
bbc
Also known as being human
109
Ian
26/03/2021 17:52:37 0 0
bbc
The so called AI can also introduce bias.

If it finds a correlation between say men of 40 to 50 who were born in a certain town and were born on a Thursday may on average only stay 4 months in the job.
A human would know about know about random correlations and which to ignore, but the machine would probably give a rejection.

We could end up with people who fail most automated tests, but are OK
37
25/03/2021 12:31:21 4 3
bbc
How the AI is trained is very important. quite of they are trained using data sets of mainly white male middle class data
46
25/03/2021 12:52:18 8 2
bbc
Since white, middle class people are the majority in the UK, why is this surprising? Unless of course, you'd like to weight it against them - an act of racism in it's self.
70
25/03/2021 16:25:10 0 1
bbc
A good point but if over 10% are colourful or working class then that's still over 10% that can be disproportionately subject to extremes of treatment. It's an important part of what represents the tectonic shifts in employment. I hope we come out the other end with the populace in control of decisions and people only doing work they want to do.
102
26/03/2021 16:45:48 0 0
bbc
Because this very low-level AI is trained / written to reinforce trends, not buck them. So if 90% of the workforce is white, the AI will prefer white applicants and prefer to retain white staff. So 90% becomes 99%, a self-fulfilling propohesy, a self-reinforcing mechanism, and then it's 100%.

And everyone will say "computer said no" and feign innocence.
24
25/03/2021 11:53:11 1 5
bbc
Like the whole ID card proposal, it's those with the most to fear that are opposed to it, and prefer to rely on doing 'favours' for the boss to keep them in a job.
47
25/03/2021 13:11:32 2 1
bbc
Never heard of scope creep?

Despite the lack of any intention of vaccine passports being used to live day2day there are again advocates that say pubs should be able to use vaccine passports to open.
48
Rob
25/03/2021 13:14:50 8 0
bbc
Interesting article. Filtering CVs for certain keywords has been done for years. Adding AI just adds another level to understand the data better
However I'm more interested in how to get hold of those little robots. Anyone know ?
78
26/03/2021 03:49:52 1 1
bbc
Best way to get a hold of these little robots is to grab them by their shorts and coillies ;)
41
25/03/2021 12:44:55 3 10
bbc
And what exactly constitutes AI? How complex does the algorithm need to be? Does it need to have a 'learning' phase? Can it be an expert system? Does the TUC even have a remote idea about technology or did they get it from a YouTube video they saw once on a lunchtime break?
49
25/03/2021 13:17:33 3 4
bbc
"Does the TUC even have a remote idea about technology" not in my experience.
21
25/03/2021 11:47:36 1 17
bbc
So you prefer the purely subjective boss decisions? You play golf with him then I take it.
Ambulance chasing lawyers love taking up cases where idiots that know how to make a widget think they know employment law and do an Alan Sugar - cash in the bank.
50
25/03/2021 13:18:43 7 0
bbc
"So you prefer the purely subjective boss decisions? "

Since HR works simply at the behest of the boss, all that it means is that decisions are pushed down

HR does not work for the employees in the lower rungs, it works for the bosses
51
jr
25/03/2021 13:27:47 0 0
bbc
Cloisters - not a law firm but a barristers' chambers
52
jch
25/03/2021 13:45:52 0 1
bbc
While the use of AI presents challenges to prospective employees, I remember seeing a news piece 20 years ago where a company was using a graphologist to weed out candidates. They were taking a couple of seconds to assess a written form before rejecting or accepting it, was that "fair"? I can see the recruiter's problem, asking for a degree still means hundreds might apply.
41
25/03/2021 12:44:55 3 10
bbc
And what exactly constitutes AI? How complex does the algorithm need to be? Does it need to have a 'learning' phase? Can it be an expert system? Does the TUC even have a remote idea about technology or did they get it from a YouTube video they saw once on a lunchtime break?
53
jch
25/03/2021 13:48:01 0 0
bbc
I assume it depends on the job. Some might only need to know which end of the broom to hold.
54
25/03/2021 13:59:41 1 2
bbc
As long as the algorythm is properly designed and constructed it should eliminate human bias.
This however is the difficult part.
31
25/03/2021 12:12:01 11 2
bbc
Sadly that's exactly what a lot of modern AI is. I use the old terminology - 'Weak AI' verses 'Strong AI'.
The real thing - Strong AI is still as rare as hens teeth today and even the most most advanced systems still follow the weak mould.. Completely mindless and mostly less 'intelligent' than a fly or even a bacterium.
(I work in Strong AI BTW.)
55
25/03/2021 13:59:59 3 0
bbc
Artificial intelligence requires the ability to learn from & use experience. An algorithm is a posh name for a program, which may may have learning capability. However most do not & are therefore at risk of built-in prejudice, depending on the rules the software is programmed to follow. This in turn depends on the person who specifies the procedure.
56
25/03/2021 14:09:31 7 1
bbc
I know a former HR manager in the Civil Service who had to make a shortlist from many hundreds of applicants for a single job.
Stage one: If application said complete form on black ink and blue was used - discard.
Stage two: Untidy or careless data entry - discard
Stage three: Examine application for bad grammar - discard
Stage four: This is where serious vetting is carried out for the shortlist
62
25/03/2021 15:14:55 1 6
bbc
Typical HR, perhaps the ones who answered poorly were the ones who were busy, the ones with more free time could take their time filling in stupid forms

Promote form fillers
104
26/03/2021 16:51:34 1 0
bbc
Quite right, too.

"Do not press the RED button, this will launch the nuclear warhead"
"Oops, I though you meant the BLUE button."

Important to follow instructions, and if finding the correct coloured pen is too hard, suggest other issues as well.
57
25/03/2021 14:22:39 3 3
bbc
"workers could be “hired and fired by algorithm”, new legal protections were needed"

The legal presumption should be that the use of AI in the firing process is automatic grounds for unfair dismissal...
58
25/03/2021 14:27:34 1 3
bbc
Artificial intelligence at work? How about applying some real intelligence first?

We don't understand how our own intelligence works so the whole idea of AI is something of an overhyped merchandising label like "smart" phones, meters and motorways which, of course, are anything but smart.

Programs/algorithms can easily be adaptive to changing data but that isn't intelligence it's just adaptive.
59
25/03/2021 14:39:41 3 2
bbc
AI is based on rules - as long as the rules are clear then surely they are more likely to be consistently applied and therefore applied equally to all? I've witnessed some of the quality of these so called vetting services carried out by humans and frankly I would much prefer a computer to be doing it :-) ...get the rules right, don't shoot the messenger of them!
60
25/03/2021 14:52:40 1 1
bbc
I can't see how algorithms can deal with the nuances of human problems & behaviours. It will follow a tick box method, but dealing with individual human problems is far more complicated.

Employment Tribunals love companies to have correctly applied the law and to have followed procedures but, and this is the crux of the matter, they also expect companies (and employees) to have acted reasonably.
76
25/03/2021 22:58:44 2 0
bbc
You are lucky when most cases do not get to tribunals - most get paid off with NDA’s to stop the truth coming out.

It is all done to protect the company image when management ranks (old boys club/golfing buddies) protect each other supported by HR.
61
25/03/2021 15:03:29 3 2
bbc
Algorithms have been used for years in the firing process. I have been let go due to algorithms a couple of times

A new company director was installed. He was tasked with saving 10% of costs per year. He typed an algorithm into Excel: Staff total x 0.10 = the number of people to let go. Such a simple algorithm, invented by a genius.
56
25/03/2021 14:09:31 7 1
bbc
I know a former HR manager in the Civil Service who had to make a shortlist from many hundreds of applicants for a single job.
Stage one: If application said complete form on black ink and blue was used - discard.
Stage two: Untidy or careless data entry - discard
Stage three: Examine application for bad grammar - discard
Stage four: This is where serious vetting is carried out for the shortlist
62
25/03/2021 15:14:55 1 6
bbc
Typical HR, perhaps the ones who answered poorly were the ones who were busy, the ones with more free time could take their time filling in stupid forms

Promote form fillers
79
26/03/2021 05:22:14 6 0
bbc
If a person can't make an effort to fill an application in properly and neatly, why would the business think they will make any effort to work.
98
26/03/2021 13:59:40 3 0
bbc
If it mattered to you then you would find time and make an effort
63
25/03/2021 15:33:55 0 2
bbc
Article 22 of the UK GDPR has additional rules to protect individuals if you are carrying out solely automated decision-making that has legal or similarly significant effects on them....
106
26/03/2021 16:57:35 0 0
bbc
https://gdpr-info.eu/art-4-gdpr/

Para 4 = work performance

https://gdpr-info.eu/art-22-gdpr/

The "appeal against the AI" must be human. Except that might be a sham, by a human HR drone that just agrees with the original "decision".
64
25/03/2021 15:40:44 5 0
bbc
Danger Will Robinson!!
4
25/03/2021 10:51:31 3 8
bbc
Is the TUC relevant in the modern world?

I think not.
65
25/03/2021 15:59:49 1 1
bbc
More relevant than you, based on the drivel you post most of the time...
66
25/03/2021 16:05:45 1 1
bbc
See when you get to this level of management automation you have to start questioning some of the justifications around ownership and decision making. This kind of approach can only fairly be used if the algorithms are designed/chosen by the workers. In reality in an effort to maximise profits more and more professionals will join the expanding precariat.
67
25/03/2021 16:12:46 5 4
bbc
I had some terrible bosses when I was younger. One of them actually said the phrase (without any hint of irony or humour) "It's you [being made redundant] because you're younger and prettier than me. You'll be taking clients off me if I let you stay". A great way to get herself sued if I'd recorded it, but unfortunately I didn't...

I'd trust AI far more than a lot of humans.
69
25/03/2021 16:19:32 1 0
bbc
It's the comparative scale mainly that's the issue and the broader creeping concerns of 'what are the success criteria?'. This can rapidly become a policy of optimally suppressing wages and benefits whilst boosting discernible deliverables (perhaps a tactical firing at key times of year reduce requests for a pay rise?).
93
26/03/2021 13:17:48 0 1
bbc
Decision making by humans is flawed at so many levels that your experience is the tip of the iceberg - which isn't intended to belittle it.

Once AI can truly think for itself, then all the prejudices and self interest can be driven out of the system.
68
25/03/2021 16:13:48 3 10
bbc
Ai is the future but Britain gave up its IT industry and let USA have it
67
25/03/2021 16:12:46 5 4
bbc
I had some terrible bosses when I was younger. One of them actually said the phrase (without any hint of irony or humour) "It's you [being made redundant] because you're younger and prettier than me. You'll be taking clients off me if I let you stay". A great way to get herself sued if I'd recorded it, but unfortunately I didn't...

I'd trust AI far more than a lot of humans.
69
25/03/2021 16:19:32 1 0
bbc
It's the comparative scale mainly that's the issue and the broader creeping concerns of 'what are the success criteria?'. This can rapidly become a policy of optimally suppressing wages and benefits whilst boosting discernible deliverables (perhaps a tactical firing at key times of year reduce requests for a pay rise?).
46
25/03/2021 12:52:18 8 2
bbc
Since white, middle class people are the majority in the UK, why is this surprising? Unless of course, you'd like to weight it against them - an act of racism in it's self.
70
25/03/2021 16:25:10 0 1
bbc
A good point but if over 10% are colourful or working class then that's still over 10% that can be disproportionately subject to extremes of treatment. It's an important part of what represents the tectonic shifts in employment. I hope we come out the other end with the populace in control of decisions and people only doing work they want to do.
71
25/03/2021 16:53:42 2 5
bbc
Whilst these algorithms no doubt save a lot of time they can't read between the lines and will also relentlessly pursue idiotic policies without questioning their reason. So not good for blue lights, hospitals or armed forces and nuclear power stations - fine for call centres, estate agents, MPs , BT staff and sales. It looks like these algorithms are also used to manage travel and procurement.
95
26/03/2021 13:40:47 0 1
bbc
The biggest nuclear disaster in Britain was caused by - you guessed it - human error.
72
25/03/2021 17:49:46 2 1
bbc
Machines are potentially no different to human beings.

In humans we call it either deliberate or unconcious bias.

In machines we regard it as a software or programming glitch. But machines are programmed by humans.

No good reason why important decisions should be treated differently - with a similar right to challenge decisions.
88
26/03/2021 12:13:21 2 1
bbc
Machines don't get tired, don't have a bad day, don't come in hung over. Machine Learning can spot the early signs of cancer or a tumor etc on an xray consistantly with 99% accuracy. The human "experts" average around 75% and on a bad day that can easily drop to a stupidly low number.
You don't program an ML model, you train it by giving it large sets of data.
89
26/03/2021 12:23:04 2 0
bbc
Very true. In my organisation (in IT) we have a very cumbersome change process that staff need to go through to implement a change.

Then we deployed machine learning in some areas; and all of the changes it made bypassed the change process.

Machine learning and AI have their places and can be of great benefit, but the appropriate controls and governance need to be in place.
73
25/03/2021 20:13:02 5 1
bbc
I love anonymity. But I hate smart phones and similar devices that prevent anonymity. I don't even like writing comments, but these comments guarantee nobody will listen to or watch me, because my comments are so boring. Yours too.
96
26/03/2021 13:55:10 1 0
bbc
Its true my comments are boring
74
25/03/2021 22:26:16 2 1
bbc
Ai will be taking the jobs over. Any job that is knowledge based. Now it matters all of a sudden when automation did not. It is serious now as it is the posh jobs in the firing line! Only way to survive is to be cheaper than the machine.
75
25/03/2021 22:36:23 0 0
bbc
be cheaper than the machine or get a job in AI :)
74
25/03/2021 22:26:16 2 1
bbc
Ai will be taking the jobs over. Any job that is knowledge based. Now it matters all of a sudden when automation did not. It is serious now as it is the posh jobs in the firing line! Only way to survive is to be cheaper than the machine.
75
25/03/2021 22:36:23 0 0
bbc
be cheaper than the machine or get a job in AI :)
92
26/03/2021 13:09:26 1 0
bbc
There will be no jobs in AI. If you're talking about proper AI, then it will be doing those jobs itself.
60
25/03/2021 14:52:40 1 1
bbc
I can't see how algorithms can deal with the nuances of human problems & behaviours. It will follow a tick box method, but dealing with individual human problems is far more complicated.

Employment Tribunals love companies to have correctly applied the law and to have followed procedures but, and this is the crux of the matter, they also expect companies (and employees) to have acted reasonably.
76
25/03/2021 22:58:44 2 0
bbc
You are lucky when most cases do not get to tribunals - most get paid off with NDA’s to stop the truth coming out.

It is all done to protect the company image when management ranks (old boys club/golfing buddies) protect each other supported by HR.
77
25/03/2021 23:01:13 0 6
bbc
AI is overhyped. Right now it can just about barely handle speech recognition.

still a long long way to go to destroy the world and send an arnie back in time

Relax if it takes over your job - it just means your job was mundane
80
26/03/2021 06:23:32 8 1
bbc
"Relax if it takes over your job" Oh sure, just relax and chill as you lose your source of income. And it's ok, because my job was mundane, so no worries I'm unemployed. What unpleasant, thoughtless rubbish. This is exactly the kind of thinking that trade unions are worried about.
48
Rob
25/03/2021 13:14:50 8 0
bbc
Interesting article. Filtering CVs for certain keywords has been done for years. Adding AI just adds another level to understand the data better
However I'm more interested in how to get hold of those little robots. Anyone know ?
78
26/03/2021 03:49:52 1 1
bbc
Best way to get a hold of these little robots is to grab them by their shorts and coillies ;)
91
26/03/2021 13:06:01 1 0
bbc
downvoter: you have ZERO sense of humor ;)
62
25/03/2021 15:14:55 1 6
bbc
Typical HR, perhaps the ones who answered poorly were the ones who were busy, the ones with more free time could take their time filling in stupid forms

Promote form fillers
79
26/03/2021 05:22:14 6 0
bbc
If a person can't make an effort to fill an application in properly and neatly, why would the business think they will make any effort to work.
77
25/03/2021 23:01:13 0 6
bbc
AI is overhyped. Right now it can just about barely handle speech recognition.

still a long long way to go to destroy the world and send an arnie back in time

Relax if it takes over your job - it just means your job was mundane
80
26/03/2021 06:23:32 8 1
bbc
"Relax if it takes over your job" Oh sure, just relax and chill as you lose your source of income. And it's ok, because my job was mundane, so no worries I'm unemployed. What unpleasant, thoughtless rubbish. This is exactly the kind of thinking that trade unions are worried about.
85
26/03/2021 10:13:48 1 1
bbc
Many jobs that are mundane and full of red tape need to be automated to drive efficiency. Using algorithms to implement systemic policies is still in its infancy and inevitably will have teething problems. Yes there need to be regulations to ensure fairness but to prevent efforts to drive efficiency changes just to stop people from losing their jobs is neo-luddism
81
26/03/2021 08:44:40 1 0
bbc
Despite programming computers as a child, I am now becoming a technophobe who is reluctant to embrace new technology, even though I do still keep up with developments in programming, including AI. Computers can be excellent tools, but they should neither be overused nor over-relied upon.
84
26/03/2021 10:04:12 1 0
bbc
The rate of change in technology, especially digital, is exponential.

But like anything else, use what you are happy with stick with it.

Personally speaking, technology has got me through this lockdown from ordering medication, food, socks, to keeping in touch, entertainment and filling in a tax return.

Just make it work for you.
82
26/03/2021 09:53:12 2 0
bbc
I now wonder what happened to all the comments that AI would provide more and better jobs.
The AI now hires on its own learned algorithim and sebds a text "You're dumped" when you are no longer required.
https://futurism.com/amazon-ai-fire-workers
Amazon Used An AI to Automatically Fire Low-Productivity Workers

Luddites, technophobes and conspiracy theorists are right to be concerned about AI.
83
26/03/2021 09:56:28 1 1
bbc
Relax.

Ask R2-D2 or 3-CPO to adjudicate.
81
26/03/2021 08:44:40 1 0
bbc
Despite programming computers as a child, I am now becoming a technophobe who is reluctant to embrace new technology, even though I do still keep up with developments in programming, including AI. Computers can be excellent tools, but they should neither be overused nor over-relied upon.
84
26/03/2021 10:04:12 1 0
bbc
The rate of change in technology, especially digital, is exponential.

But like anything else, use what you are happy with stick with it.

Personally speaking, technology has got me through this lockdown from ordering medication, food, socks, to keeping in touch, entertainment and filling in a tax return.

Just make it work for you.
80
26/03/2021 06:23:32 8 1
bbc
"Relax if it takes over your job" Oh sure, just relax and chill as you lose your source of income. And it's ok, because my job was mundane, so no worries I'm unemployed. What unpleasant, thoughtless rubbish. This is exactly the kind of thinking that trade unions are worried about.
85
26/03/2021 10:13:48 1 1
bbc
Many jobs that are mundane and full of red tape need to be automated to drive efficiency. Using algorithms to implement systemic policies is still in its infancy and inevitably will have teething problems. Yes there need to be regulations to ensure fairness but to prevent efforts to drive efficiency changes just to stop people from losing their jobs is neo-luddism
108
26/03/2021 17:02:22 0 0
bbc
except the issue at hand is not using AI to improve systems or processes, but to delegate complex decision-making to a basic computer program with all the woo and the naive human belief in the infallability af a computer.

Programmed by the cheapest outsourced company, with lots of bias, they might not even know they had.

Imagine getting married to a stranger, picked by a computer. There.
86
26/03/2021 11:46:29 2 1
bbc
So you're not hired by a company using AI in selection. Think yourself lucky. Who'd want to work for a company that had those values? Not me.
87
26/03/2021 12:07:21 4 0
bbc
There are cases where there are 1000's of applicants for a position, whereby its impossible for the employer to review all applications, so the solutions are:
- AI
- The David Brent approach (putting the "unlucky" applicants straight in the bin to narrow the field).

AI can have its use

Accountability, regulation and transparency are absolutely key though.
110
26/03/2021 18:21:45 0 0
bbc
Accountability, regulation and transparency are absolutely key though.

This is where AI comes into its own as there is none of those aspects to worry about.
The alternative AI proposition is that it does not discriminate against any sector of the human population with respect to colour creed sex or other orientation.
Worry is once AI starts up proper (as it someday will do) AI will be supreme.
72
25/03/2021 17:49:46 2 1
bbc
Machines are potentially no different to human beings.

In humans we call it either deliberate or unconcious bias.

In machines we regard it as a software or programming glitch. But machines are programmed by humans.

No good reason why important decisions should be treated differently - with a similar right to challenge decisions.
88
26/03/2021 12:13:21 2 1
bbc
Machines don't get tired, don't have a bad day, don't come in hung over. Machine Learning can spot the early signs of cancer or a tumor etc on an xray consistantly with 99% accuracy. The human "experts" average around 75% and on a bad day that can easily drop to a stupidly low number.
You don't program an ML model, you train it by giving it large sets of data.
72
25/03/2021 17:49:46 2 1
bbc
Machines are potentially no different to human beings.

In humans we call it either deliberate or unconcious bias.

In machines we regard it as a software or programming glitch. But machines are programmed by humans.

No good reason why important decisions should be treated differently - with a similar right to challenge decisions.
89
26/03/2021 12:23:04 2 0
bbc
Very true. In my organisation (in IT) we have a very cumbersome change process that staff need to go through to implement a change.

Then we deployed machine learning in some areas; and all of the changes it made bypassed the change process.

Machine learning and AI have their places and can be of great benefit, but the appropriate controls and governance need to be in place.
90
26/03/2021 13:04:48 1 0
bbc
I see a great future for AI in the areas where it can make impartial decisions based on the common good e.g. environmental protection, route planning etc.
But if it's used to extend the reach of human exploitation in small ways first, just to make or save money, we might never get to see the bigger benefits it can offer.
78
26/03/2021 03:49:52 1 1
bbc
Best way to get a hold of these little robots is to grab them by their shorts and coillies ;)
91
26/03/2021 13:06:01 1 0
bbc
downvoter: you have ZERO sense of humor ;)
75
25/03/2021 22:36:23 0 0
bbc
be cheaper than the machine or get a job in AI :)
92
26/03/2021 13:09:26 1 0
bbc
There will be no jobs in AI. If you're talking about proper AI, then it will be doing those jobs itself.
67
25/03/2021 16:12:46 5 4
bbc
I had some terrible bosses when I was younger. One of them actually said the phrase (without any hint of irony or humour) "It's you [being made redundant] because you're younger and prettier than me. You'll be taking clients off me if I let you stay". A great way to get herself sued if I'd recorded it, but unfortunately I didn't...

I'd trust AI far more than a lot of humans.
93
26/03/2021 13:17:48 0 1
bbc
Decision making by humans is flawed at so many levels that your experience is the tip of the iceberg - which isn't intended to belittle it.

Once AI can truly think for itself, then all the prejudices and self interest can be driven out of the system.
107
26/03/2021 16:58:29 0 0
bbc
Once AI can think for itself... it will have it's own goals and desires.

SkyNet?
39
25/03/2021 12:37:10 1 1
bbc
Obviously we will not be pay a machine food vouchers, but at some point, the economy will stall with too many people not working. If we are to work less hours but maintain a quality of life, then the Software Agents now doing our jobs need to contribute to that welfare. Do you understand this, or do you need to order a case of 12 online and delivered to you to see it functioning in action.
94
26/03/2021 13:34:23 1 0
bbc
Big corporations have been arguing strongly for lower corporation tax on the basis that their societal contribution is via employee personal taxation. So the logical conclusion when they replace people (who pay tax) with machines (who don't) that the tax shortfall needs to be made up somewhere. Your suggestion is probably the logical start point to solve the problem.
71
25/03/2021 16:53:42 2 5
bbc
Whilst these algorithms no doubt save a lot of time they can't read between the lines and will also relentlessly pursue idiotic policies without questioning their reason. So not good for blue lights, hospitals or armed forces and nuclear power stations - fine for call centres, estate agents, MPs , BT staff and sales. It looks like these algorithms are also used to manage travel and procurement.
95
26/03/2021 13:40:47 0 1
bbc
The biggest nuclear disaster in Britain was caused by - you guessed it - human error.
73
25/03/2021 20:13:02 5 1
bbc
I love anonymity. But I hate smart phones and similar devices that prevent anonymity. I don't even like writing comments, but these comments guarantee nobody will listen to or watch me, because my comments are so boring. Yours too.
96
26/03/2021 13:55:10 1 0
bbc
Its true my comments are boring
45
25/03/2021 13:09:15 3 2
bbc
But there is also a lot of bias with people who interview.
97
26/03/2021 13:58:43 1 0
bbc
Also known as being human
62
25/03/2021 15:14:55 1 6
bbc
Typical HR, perhaps the ones who answered poorly were the ones who were busy, the ones with more free time could take their time filling in stupid forms

Promote form fillers
98
26/03/2021 13:59:40 3 0
bbc
If it mattered to you then you would find time and make an effort
99
26/03/2021 15:50:44 0 0
bbc
AI won't have favourites, unlike many bosses. Will certainly reduce the amount of sucking up and maybe people can spend their time doing the work they are supposed to instead.
3
25/03/2021 10:46:06 7 5
bbc
Another ‘could be’ headline by the BBC.

It is not news but speculation and hearsay.

People are not made redundant. It is the job that is made redundant. There are strict legal requirements concerning having a criteria, consultation and time. Nothing to do with a computer program.
100
26/03/2021 16:38:03 0 0
bbc
Another report of what is most assuredly already happening, as explained in the article. Ask any recruitment agency how they filter the 1000s of CVs down to the 10 they will actually read - guess what, it's a computer.

People are being selected to be dismissed. If 100 jobs exist and 10 are made redundant, the very real question is; which 10? Those the computer chose, based on programmer bias.