Fifth of students 'poorly prepared for university'
25/03/2021 | news | education | 191
Two in five students say they would have made better choices if they had had better advice, Ucas finds.
1
MVP
25/03/2021 10:22:40 15 3
bbc
I suspect the issue here is that some universities use aggressive marketing to attract students who are lulled into enrolling for courses that are unsuitable.
51
25/03/2021 14:08:15 0 6
bbc
Don't think this is the case. Students expectations do not meet the reality of the course or the course is poorly delivered and students vote with their feet.
173
ww
26/03/2021 16:55:00 0 0
bbc
Tough. If 18 year olds cant think for themselves on life matters then they will fail.
2
25/03/2021 10:33:49 12 3
bbc
I think it would be worthwhile if people took a year or two out of education before deciding on university.

I get that it makes sense to get as much education done in one long run then commit to work, but a bit of travel or work (or both) at 18/19/20 might change your mind. I did volunteer work overseas for a year when I was 18 & came back with a different perspective and different priorities.
14
25/03/2021 11:13:41 6 0
bbc
Definitely. Perhaps some STEM subjects should be exempt, as they require continuity, but you shouldn't be allowed to do a BA course until you can prove that you have worked int he real world for a few years. It would lead to a lot less people wasting three years and being attached to a debt ball and chain.
86
sj
25/03/2021 17:38:51 1 0
bbc
But that wouldn't help anyone to know which A-levels to take, in order to qualify for the degree course that they are interested in. If for example you don't take maths, you just can't apply for many STEM subjects.
109
26/03/2021 00:00:15 1 1
bbc
There are + and - of going straightaway or delay, if u are academic, i think delaying to do often 'crappy' job is just a waste of time...what does working in a factory or call centre really teach you? Mainly that you dont want to be there!
And it is often difficult for mature students to settle back to study, to fit in and many wont want to be financially dependent on parents aged 23/24.
3
25/03/2021 10:38:11 1 2
bbc
Universities need to do more to educate parents/pupils about how they choose candidates. To explain what subjects lead to doing their courses. Parents can then help pupils to think about their subject options after GCSE. Schools, 6th forms are more concerned with getting any exam results, or for their own dept. to be objective in giving advice about life after education.
50
25/03/2021 14:05:05 3 1
bbc
All this information is available on university websites or at open days.
I'd be looking scared sitting near to those 3.. Removed
8
25/03/2021 11:05:00 0 2
bbc
Why?
5
25/03/2021 10:42:11 21 7
bbc
A-levels have been seriously dumbed down, and students are often spoon-fed, by teachers who often don't love their subjects or know them really well.

We need talented inspiring teachers who will challenge their students. However, such people are very unlikely to want to work in UK schools, where they are underpaid, grossly over burdened with irrelevant tasks, bullied, and not appreciated.
9
25/03/2021 11:13:23 6 5
bbc
A levels dumbed down; surely not after the Gove reforms of the A level system.

For a Government that believes in market forces (and the relationship between supply and demand): how is it we have never had a parliamentary constituency with no candidates with MPs salaries rising all the time. We are desperately short of high quality teachers of stem subjects but their salaries are falling!
33
25/03/2021 12:38:18 3 11
bbc
Pay is too high, it attracts in those after the money instead of the inspiring dedicated teacher not in it for money. The very function of schooling now with the ‘irrelevant' tasks, teaching to tests etc. All part of why schooling as the 'method' is the entire problem in education. For both teachers and children.
170
ww
26/03/2021 16:51:03 0 0
bbc
A levels and dumbing down is not the question. The only question involving exams is whether the exams better rank (than previous years) students so Universities and employers can pick who is right for them. But that is never the question which is asked. It does not matter whether GCSE / A levels are easier or not than previous years.
The drive to fill university places with as many (fee-paying) students as possible, regardless of their ability, is responsible for this phenomenon.
Positive discrimination in favour of diverse & PC , intakes from state schools only and the rejection of public-school candidates is also to blame
Many students often, of an ethnic origin, are unable to cope with a degree and will simply drop-out
Removed
7
25/03/2021 10:54:53 28 7
bbc
Fourth fifths of students are probably wasting their time (and money) attending university in the first place.
11
25/03/2021 11:07:33 19 2
bbc
So very true. Most young people would be vastly better off going straight into employment and learning on the job.

Of course, I doubt this would help many of those who find themselves way out of their depth on medicine and maths courses. This is why it's so important to challenge A-level students. They really do need to appreciate that subjects can be a lot harder than they imagine.
22
25/03/2021 12:04:08 5 7
bbc
Definitely, and most degrees can be completed in two years - the third year is just play-time.
142
26/03/2021 11:17:07 2 0
bbc
Arts may have interest [ that is my background] but I always worked and gained good qualifications en route.
Uni is really only essential for practical Science/Maths based courses. Even teaching courses should be done on site [from experience]
151
26/03/2021 13:28:04 2 0
bbc
Unfortunately many parents who haven't attended university see their children getting a degree as a golden ticket.
I'd be looking scared sitting near to those 3.. Removed
8
25/03/2021 11:05:00 0 2
bbc
Why?
5
25/03/2021 10:42:11 21 7
bbc
A-levels have been seriously dumbed down, and students are often spoon-fed, by teachers who often don't love their subjects or know them really well.

We need talented inspiring teachers who will challenge their students. However, such people are very unlikely to want to work in UK schools, where they are underpaid, grossly over burdened with irrelevant tasks, bullied, and not appreciated.
9
25/03/2021 11:13:23 6 5
bbc
A levels dumbed down; surely not after the Gove reforms of the A level system.

For a Government that believes in market forces (and the relationship between supply and demand): how is it we have never had a parliamentary constituency with no candidates with MPs salaries rising all the time. We are desperately short of high quality teachers of stem subjects but their salaries are falling!
19
25/03/2021 11:47:28 4 0
bbc
Frank, sadly it's far worse than just falling salaries!

Often those higher up the pay scale are "encouraged" to resign. And its not at all unusual for a Teach First trainee to be preferred over a highly talented and experienced teacher.

My own nephew suffered grievously by having an English graduate "teach" him maths for 4 years. In her 3rd year she was given A-level classes: and FM in her 4th!
10
25/03/2021 11:16:03 10 1
bbc
Sadly these days Universities are businesses first and academic establishments second. This year, with so many students having work remotely, having absolutely zero activities/sports to play, and no social aspect - combined with fees & accommodation still being demanded, has I fear made many rethink their future. Work experience & vocational training carries greater weight for prospects for many.
16
25/03/2021 11:22:33 9 2
bbc
Eh? Zero activities - Universities have electronic libraries with more material than can be read in a lifetime for those interested in the subjects chosen for study. As to social aspect, young people seem very adept at keeping in contact through various forms of social media - skills which they presumably haven't forgotten?
7
25/03/2021 10:54:53 28 7
bbc
Fourth fifths of students are probably wasting their time (and money) attending university in the first place.
11
25/03/2021 11:07:33 19 2
bbc
So very true. Most young people would be vastly better off going straight into employment and learning on the job.

Of course, I doubt this would help many of those who find themselves way out of their depth on medicine and maths courses. This is why it's so important to challenge A-level students. They really do need to appreciate that subjects can be a lot harder than they imagine.
17
25/03/2021 11:39:07 9 1
bbc
Part of the problem is that some parents think that being "good" at arithmetic is the same as being "good" at mathematics.
105
25/03/2021 22:23:24 3 4
bbc
And your carefully collected evidence based on extensive data sets for this assertion is what exactly? I thought from your theoretical physics, theoretical chemisistry and maths classes you might have just about realised that wild extrapolation based on no concrete evidence whatsoever was not a very sound way to proceed. Perhaps you went to the same institution as @Grumpy?
149
26/03/2021 13:04:22 1 0
bbc
I like what you say in your first sentence David but the grim truth is that many employers do not want to take people on and have an initial time span for learning on the job .

It was ok for me to do that in the early 1980's but now many do not want to pay them to learn and train...its wrong of course but these days nearly everything is wrong
12
25/03/2021 11:07:45 20 3
bbc
Doesn't the principle of 'caveat emptor' apply? There is abundant information on University websites about what the entry qualifications are & there is a lot of information generally available about what careers particular degree programmes qualify one for. Why suggest it is someone else's fault if proper preparation isn't done? Good to see that most are choosing educational paths out of interest.
27
25/03/2021 12:19:12 6 7
bbc
Many teenagers need encouragement to apply for courses that they are academically suited to. Those with supportive and engaged parents at at a huge advantage over those with parents who really aren't interested.

That's why re-establishing schools careers officers is so very important.
120
26/03/2021 09:18:27 1 2
bbc
No, it doesn’t.
Regrettably, for those undergraduates who find they are on the wrong course/ don’t like university life/ cannot cope living independently for the first time/ have little idea what employment opportunities exist should they graduate, there is no legal action they can take against any individual, or educational body for their failings.
13
25/03/2021 11:11:49 23 5
bbc
And in other news - four fifths of university graduates poorly prepared for the real world'
72
25/03/2021 16:36:44 7 2
bbc
Only 80%, possible 97% ??
148
26/03/2021 12:26:07 3 1
bbc
Are they any less prepared than someone leaving school at 16/18? No.
2
25/03/2021 10:33:49 12 3
bbc
I think it would be worthwhile if people took a year or two out of education before deciding on university.

I get that it makes sense to get as much education done in one long run then commit to work, but a bit of travel or work (or both) at 18/19/20 might change your mind. I did volunteer work overseas for a year when I was 18 & came back with a different perspective and different priorities.
14
25/03/2021 11:13:41 6 0
bbc
Definitely. Perhaps some STEM subjects should be exempt, as they require continuity, but you shouldn't be allowed to do a BA course until you can prove that you have worked int he real world for a few years. It would lead to a lot less people wasting three years and being attached to a debt ball and chain.
85
25/03/2021 17:32:04 0 4
bbc
STEM shouldnt be excluded.
107
25/03/2021 22:49:12 2 3
bbc
What qualifies you to dictate when and how people should apply to and enter University? Perhaps you should try joining the real world?
133
26/03/2021 09:48:46 1 1
bbc
Using BA is wrong. I have a BA in Mathematics & Physics.
15
25/03/2021 11:17:15 17 4
bbc
'The report stresses that young people need "early engagement" in careers information and advice, with one in three students knowing that university was an option for them at primary school.'

For goodness sake, I didn't know what a University was at primary school, there was plenty of time to find out about them later!
46
25/03/2021 13:56:47 4 0
bbc
I did, and I thought that to go there I would need to be incredibly clever - which I knew I wasn't

But in primary school I did know what I wanted to do, and that required a University education (definitely NOT a Uni education)

Strangely enough, it turned out I was clever enough (although I still didn't believe it) and managed to end up in the career I wanted
171
ww
26/03/2021 16:52:23 0 1
bbc
The strongest predictor of whether a student goes to University is whether a parent went to University. Guess which social class the 1 in 3 came from.
10
25/03/2021 11:16:03 10 1
bbc
Sadly these days Universities are businesses first and academic establishments second. This year, with so many students having work remotely, having absolutely zero activities/sports to play, and no social aspect - combined with fees & accommodation still being demanded, has I fear made many rethink their future. Work experience & vocational training carries greater weight for prospects for many.
16
25/03/2021 11:22:33 9 2
bbc
Eh? Zero activities - Universities have electronic libraries with more material than can be read in a lifetime for those interested in the subjects chosen for study. As to social aspect, young people seem very adept at keeping in contact through various forms of social media - skills which they presumably haven't forgotten?
18
25/03/2021 11:47:59 3 1
bbc
All fair points to an extent - but physical social interaction is a different thing to electronic communication. You can't play in a sports team, mix with flatmates/course mates, etc in the same way. And lets face it, the social aspect is crucial element for most students too - its part of the educational process.
11
25/03/2021 11:07:33 19 2
bbc
So very true. Most young people would be vastly better off going straight into employment and learning on the job.

Of course, I doubt this would help many of those who find themselves way out of their depth on medicine and maths courses. This is why it's so important to challenge A-level students. They really do need to appreciate that subjects can be a lot harder than they imagine.
17
25/03/2021 11:39:07 9 1
bbc
Part of the problem is that some parents think that being "good" at arithmetic is the same as being "good" at mathematics.
20
25/03/2021 11:57:44 7 1
bbc
That got a chuckle from me. It's so true. In fact the vast majority of the British public think maths and arithmetic are the same thing.
16
25/03/2021 11:22:33 9 2
bbc
Eh? Zero activities - Universities have electronic libraries with more material than can be read in a lifetime for those interested in the subjects chosen for study. As to social aspect, young people seem very adept at keeping in contact through various forms of social media - skills which they presumably haven't forgotten?
18
25/03/2021 11:47:59 3 1
bbc
All fair points to an extent - but physical social interaction is a different thing to electronic communication. You can't play in a sports team, mix with flatmates/course mates, etc in the same way. And lets face it, the social aspect is crucial element for most students too - its part of the educational process.
28
25/03/2021 12:24:18 3 1
bbc
Quite agree - my daughter is finding the lack of physical social interaction the hardest particularly in her go to pastime of music (orchestra) - playing online is no way the same and it's difficult to interact in experiences that are not 'shared'. Also online tends to descend into established cliques who already know each other 'physically' as it were.
89
25/03/2021 19:00:06 2 1
bbc
Nonsense. Playing games, sport, social chit chat, have zero need to be related to any university. Life goes on wherever you are. It is zero part of education, let alone anything to do with a university course. Far too much playing about is seen as the point of going away to university instead of the education. That must cease. Most course need minuscule, if any at all, attendance.
113
26/03/2021 08:12:29 0 1
bbc
Since when has playing in a sports team been 'crucial' to a University education? As to interacting with class mates, I'm not convinced by your argument. I'm currently taking an on-line evening language course offered by a University and have met and interacted with several very interesting people as a result. I.e. have exchanged e-mails and had Skype conversations outside of classes. Cont...
115
26/03/2021 08:32:09 0 1
bbc
Continued ... perhaps by 'physical social interaction' you are thinking of something different to me?
9
25/03/2021 11:13:23 6 5
bbc
A levels dumbed down; surely not after the Gove reforms of the A level system.

For a Government that believes in market forces (and the relationship between supply and demand): how is it we have never had a parliamentary constituency with no candidates with MPs salaries rising all the time. We are desperately short of high quality teachers of stem subjects but their salaries are falling!
19
25/03/2021 11:47:28 4 0
bbc
Frank, sadly it's far worse than just falling salaries!

Often those higher up the pay scale are "encouraged" to resign. And its not at all unusual for a Teach First trainee to be preferred over a highly talented and experienced teacher.

My own nephew suffered grievously by having an English graduate "teach" him maths for 4 years. In her 3rd year she was given A-level classes: and FM in her 4th!
17
25/03/2021 11:39:07 9 1
bbc
Part of the problem is that some parents think that being "good" at arithmetic is the same as being "good" at mathematics.
20
25/03/2021 11:57:44 7 1
bbc
That got a chuckle from me. It's so true. In fact the vast majority of the British public think maths and arithmetic are the same thing.
128
26/03/2021 09:41:33 2 1
bbc
May be a case for GCSE arithmetic for some students as opposed to mathematics for all students.
21
25/03/2021 12:03:22 2 0
bbc
I'd say it's all of them, should get a free foundation year to bring them up to speed after the terrible disruption to A-Levels.
24
25/03/2021 12:09:30 3 4
bbc
And how many lecturers do you think would be prepared to dumb down their teaching and teaching well below the level they are contracted to teach at?
70
25/03/2021 16:28:31 1 0
bbc
Thats what the 1st year of a degree is for many, plus a couple of sub-a level topics.
7
25/03/2021 10:54:53 28 7
bbc
Fourth fifths of students are probably wasting their time (and money) attending university in the first place.
22
25/03/2021 12:04:08 5 7
bbc
Definitely, and most degrees can be completed in two years - the third year is just play-time.
25
25/03/2021 12:11:42 9 2
bbc
My third year was almost entirely theoretical physics, theoretical chemistry, and some supporting maths classes.

Is that your idea of playtime?
73
25/03/2021 16:40:54 6 2
bbc
Found it the other way around, 1st year brought everyone up to the same level with a couple of easy subjects added.

By the 3rd year, it was certainly more advanced but not by much. And the Uni I went to was acknowledged as being one of the best in that subject area.
23
25/03/2021 12:07:23 9 0
bbc
This was true back when I left public school to do a science degree. The gap between school and uni in the basic laboratory skills, techniques and kit was significant. Almost as though the unis and schools didn't talk to each other and only communicated via A level grades. ...
37
25/03/2021 12:34:09 7 0
bbc
Actually most schools have drastically cut laboratory work.

When I was at school a double period every week was devoted to chemistry practical, and the same for physics. Good luck finding many schools that do this today!
39
25/03/2021 13:00:47 1 0
bbc
Agreed. I did languages and went from picture stories to Immanuel Kant in one jump. That wasn't very funny at the time.
21
25/03/2021 12:03:22 2 0
bbc
I'd say it's all of them, should get a free foundation year to bring them up to speed after the terrible disruption to A-Levels.
24
25/03/2021 12:09:30 3 4
bbc
And how many lecturers do you think would be prepared to dumb down their teaching and teaching well below the level they are contracted to teach at?
36
sci
25/03/2021 12:45:23 1 2
bbc
Foundation Level teaching is not dumbing it down, but is transformatory teaching and can be harder (to teach); it is helping the students. Teaching is a Vocation. Lots of unis already run foundation years. As for lecturers being prepared to teach different levels, as employees who says they have the right to choose - employees have to do what they're told, just the same as any other staff.
22
25/03/2021 12:04:08 5 7
bbc
Definitely, and most degrees can be completed in two years - the third year is just play-time.
25
25/03/2021 12:11:42 9 2
bbc
My third year was almost entirely theoretical physics, theoretical chemistry, and some supporting maths classes.

Is that your idea of playtime?
58
25/03/2021 15:20:40 2 1
bbc
True, although mine was practical as well. I actually created a Surface Acoustic Wave filter from a lithium niobate crystal. That worked well in the just to start digital age.
26
25/03/2021 12:16:05 9 0
bbc
For some, important choices aren't just related to the subjects they pursue to GCSE, but the senior school they attend.

One of the schools we looked at for my son was unable to offer any French language teaching in Years 7 & 8 at all.

So had he wanted to do French GCSE, having learnt French for 6 years at primary school, he would have been two years behind everyone else, starting his GCSE.
35
25/03/2021 12:31:43 11 0
bbc
I can better that. My nephew's school had students studying Spanish in Y7. Then the Spanish teacher left. Instead of doing the ethically right thing and employing another Spanish teacher they forced students to swap to French.

And anyone who suggests they couldn't easily get another Spanish teacher is being very dishonest.
12
25/03/2021 11:07:45 20 3
bbc
Doesn't the principle of 'caveat emptor' apply? There is abundant information on University websites about what the entry qualifications are & there is a lot of information generally available about what careers particular degree programmes qualify one for. Why suggest it is someone else's fault if proper preparation isn't done? Good to see that most are choosing educational paths out of interest.
27
25/03/2021 12:19:12 6 7
bbc
Many teenagers need encouragement to apply for courses that they are academically suited to. Those with supportive and engaged parents at at a huge advantage over those with parents who really aren't interested.

That's why re-establishing schools careers officers is so very important.
48
25/03/2021 14:01:02 4 2
bbc
Many teenagers need encouragement to apply for courses that they are academically suited to.

Apart from any cavils I might have with your grammar, does it not occur to you that they should be seeking courses and jobs that will engage and nurture their intellectual abilities resulting in them "working for 'old rope'" ie jobs which they enjoy doing?
62
25/03/2021 15:48:34 7 1
bbc
Agree about school careers officers, but these people need to come from outside of the education sector. Most teachers have spent their lives in a classroom setting and have little appreciation of a path of employment that is not a teacher training college
167
ww
26/03/2021 16:45:31 0 0
bbc
School career officers are a waste of time. The motivated upper middle class will know what to do. The working class will ignore what they are told to fo.
177
Kk5
26/03/2021 19:05:29 0 0
bbc
Your so right. All this bashing of young people is very depressing.
18
25/03/2021 11:47:59 3 1
bbc
All fair points to an extent - but physical social interaction is a different thing to electronic communication. You can't play in a sports team, mix with flatmates/course mates, etc in the same way. And lets face it, the social aspect is crucial element for most students too - its part of the educational process.
28
25/03/2021 12:24:18 3 1
bbc
Quite agree - my daughter is finding the lack of physical social interaction the hardest particularly in her go to pastime of music (orchestra) - playing online is no way the same and it's difficult to interact in experiences that are not 'shared'. Also online tends to descend into established cliques who already know each other 'physically' as it were.
29
25/03/2021 12:31:11 5 8
bbc
Perhaps the State should provide alarm calls and turn up to get them dressed too? If these are the supposed brightest young people, if they fail to prepare themselves for university then they should be kicked out and get a suitable job flipping burgers.

Pointless survey based press release done to pretend they have any work to do. Bbc always fall for pre written copy. Ready made whinges.
30
sci
25/03/2021 12:31:49 8 0
bbc
Careers Advice needs more independence from school employees too vested in pass rates affecting school performance charts. e.g. son 12 was put in Foundation Maths group saying it would be easier for him to pass than Higher, but not saying the highest achievable grade would be C, and precluding him from A level. He was borderline, only needed a little help; had battle to get him moved up. He got A.
32
sci
25/03/2021 12:37:48 8 2
bbc
The point being - if we and son had bowed to school teachers at age 12, or not found out about max C grade, he wouldn't have had the chance of A grade Maths GCSE, couldn't have done Maths A level or Computing, or Maths at university level. He'd have had Maths grade C, and been excluded from jobs requiring minimum B.
40
25/03/2021 12:44:39 2 2
bbc
Exactly. Most teachers have never existed outside the education body. Careers advice needs to come from professionals in other fields. Teachers should only be allowed to give careers advice about going in to teaching! It would even be better to get brickies in to give careers advice!
24
25/03/2021 12:09:30 3 4
bbc
And how many lecturers do you think would be prepared to dumb down their teaching and teaching well below the level they are contracted to teach at?
30
sci
25/03/2021 12:31:49 8 0
bbc
Careers Advice needs more independence from school employees too vested in pass rates affecting school performance charts. e.g. son 12 was put in Foundation Maths group saying it would be easier for him to pass than Higher, but not saying the highest achievable grade would be C, and precluding him from A level. He was borderline, only needed a little help; had battle to get him moved up. He got A.
32
sci
25/03/2021 12:37:48 8 2
bbc
The point being - if we and son had bowed to school teachers at age 12, or not found out about max C grade, he wouldn't have had the chance of A grade Maths GCSE, couldn't have done Maths A level or Computing, or Maths at university level. He'd have had Maths grade C, and been excluded from jobs requiring minimum B.
5
25/03/2021 10:42:11 21 7
bbc
A-levels have been seriously dumbed down, and students are often spoon-fed, by teachers who often don't love their subjects or know them really well.

We need talented inspiring teachers who will challenge their students. However, such people are very unlikely to want to work in UK schools, where they are underpaid, grossly over burdened with irrelevant tasks, bullied, and not appreciated.
33
25/03/2021 12:38:18 3 11
bbc
Pay is too high, it attracts in those after the money instead of the inspiring dedicated teacher not in it for money. The very function of schooling now with the ‘irrelevant' tasks, teaching to tests etc. All part of why schooling as the 'method' is the entire problem in education. For both teachers and children.
38
25/03/2021 12:49:02 8 2
bbc
As someone who teaches teachers, I can assure you that the pay is not 'too high'. It is below or at best equal to other graduate positions, graduate recruits won't compare their potential salary with those of unskilled or semi-skilled positions. I have lost many aspiring teachers, who would make great science or STEM teachers because they can get more money in retail, finance etc.
131
26/03/2021 09:44:53 2 1
bbc
This sounds like the "vocation defence" for paying teachers poorly. You cannot be a good teacher: unless you are close to the breadline.
159
26/03/2021 14:27:46 0 1
bbc
Altruism, being inspiring and dedicated will not put a roof over one's head or feed one's family. Teaching is difficult enough without being burdened over survival. We pay airline pilots well because they are first on the scene at an accident and we don't want them preoccupied over their mortgage!
34
25/03/2021 12:44:04 5 1
bbc
At my children's secondary school there was no interest in pushing those prediced a C or above at GCSE. Those who would naturally get an A grade were left to get one. The best teachers were put with the bordeline children to tip them into a C Grade - no one else mattered as the area was fairly affluent and tutors were available......
68
25/03/2021 16:23:50 1 1
bbc
Sadly the Law of unintended consequences.
26
25/03/2021 12:16:05 9 0
bbc
For some, important choices aren't just related to the subjects they pursue to GCSE, but the senior school they attend.

One of the schools we looked at for my son was unable to offer any French language teaching in Years 7 & 8 at all.

So had he wanted to do French GCSE, having learnt French for 6 years at primary school, he would have been two years behind everyone else, starting his GCSE.
35
25/03/2021 12:31:43 11 0
bbc
I can better that. My nephew's school had students studying Spanish in Y7. Then the Spanish teacher left. Instead of doing the ethically right thing and employing another Spanish teacher they forced students to swap to French.

And anyone who suggests they couldn't easily get another Spanish teacher is being very dishonest.
174
ww
26/03/2021 16:56:16 0 0
bbc
Spanish teachers are scarce. And it has to be economic - schools have to pay teachers. More students normally want to do French than Spanish.
24
25/03/2021 12:09:30 3 4
bbc
And how many lecturers do you think would be prepared to dumb down their teaching and teaching well below the level they are contracted to teach at?
36
sci
25/03/2021 12:45:23 1 2
bbc
Foundation Level teaching is not dumbing it down, but is transformatory teaching and can be harder (to teach); it is helping the students. Teaching is a Vocation. Lots of unis already run foundation years. As for lecturers being prepared to teach different levels, as employees who says they have the right to choose - employees have to do what they're told, just the same as any other staff.
42
25/03/2021 13:00:50 1 1
bbc
No! Employees usually contract to do a certain range of tasks. They can't then be forced to do something outside of this.
49
25/03/2021 14:02:52 3 0
bbc
Teaching is only a vocation for school teachers. For many university lecturers I've come across, it's a necessary evil: they'd much rather spend all their time doing research and writing journal articles.
23
25/03/2021 12:07:23 9 0
bbc
This was true back when I left public school to do a science degree. The gap between school and uni in the basic laboratory skills, techniques and kit was significant. Almost as though the unis and schools didn't talk to each other and only communicated via A level grades. ...
37
25/03/2021 12:34:09 7 0
bbc
Actually most schools have drastically cut laboratory work.

When I was at school a double period every week was devoted to chemistry practical, and the same for physics. Good luck finding many schools that do this today!
57
25/03/2021 15:15:36 0 0
bbc
This has been made worse with the latest changes to exam syllabuses in science, Practical assessments have been removed.
127
26/03/2021 09:39:10 1 0
bbc
May be to do with the lack of teachers of science.
33
25/03/2021 12:38:18 3 11
bbc
Pay is too high, it attracts in those after the money instead of the inspiring dedicated teacher not in it for money. The very function of schooling now with the ‘irrelevant' tasks, teaching to tests etc. All part of why schooling as the 'method' is the entire problem in education. For both teachers and children.
38
25/03/2021 12:49:02 8 2
bbc
As someone who teaches teachers, I can assure you that the pay is not 'too high'. It is below or at best equal to other graduate positions, graduate recruits won't compare their potential salary with those of unskilled or semi-skilled positions. I have lost many aspiring teachers, who would make great science or STEM teachers because they can get more money in retail, finance etc.
Removed
60
25/03/2021 15:47:08 5 2
bbc
Therein lies the entitlement attitude. ‘Because they are graduates'. Entitled people seeking money and status not a vocation and dedication to a life doing something they like and enjoy. Remove the silly graduate hurdle only put in to justify the excess pay. Never used to be a requirement, back when teachers were respected more. Changed the 'type' grasping the jobs.
23
25/03/2021 12:07:23 9 0
bbc
This was true back when I left public school to do a science degree. The gap between school and uni in the basic laboratory skills, techniques and kit was significant. Almost as though the unis and schools didn't talk to each other and only communicated via A level grades. ...
39
25/03/2021 13:00:47 1 0
bbc
Agreed. I did languages and went from picture stories to Immanuel Kant in one jump. That wasn't very funny at the time.
30
sci
25/03/2021 12:31:49 8 0
bbc
Careers Advice needs more independence from school employees too vested in pass rates affecting school performance charts. e.g. son 12 was put in Foundation Maths group saying it would be easier for him to pass than Higher, but not saying the highest achievable grade would be C, and precluding him from A level. He was borderline, only needed a little help; had battle to get him moved up. He got A.
40
25/03/2021 12:44:39 2 2
bbc
Exactly. Most teachers have never existed outside the education body. Careers advice needs to come from professionals in other fields. Teachers should only be allowed to give careers advice about going in to teaching! It would even be better to get brickies in to give careers advice!
69
25/03/2021 16:25:48 0 0
bbc
The best lecturers I had were the ones who worked in the real world or returned from the real world to work in academia.
41
25/03/2021 12:49:58 22 4
bbc
The root of the problem here, as with so many things, is Blair. I don't think that he intended so many to go to university, it was meant to be further education in general. But being Blair and not thinking things through, he didn't factor in that a laptop and a handful of books are way cheaper than workshops, machinery and industrial materials! So lots of BAs, very few useful, practical course.
47
25/03/2021 13:58:57 17 1
bbc
I recall a conservation in Taiwan, with people in their 20’s. They said the degree options were law, engineering and medicine. They could not comprehend the concept of a media studies degree or similar. Engineering universities next to main semiconductor companies, employing thousands of graduates: now all leading chips made there. Government and industry working together, unlike Blair.
36
sci
25/03/2021 12:45:23 1 2
bbc
Foundation Level teaching is not dumbing it down, but is transformatory teaching and can be harder (to teach); it is helping the students. Teaching is a Vocation. Lots of unis already run foundation years. As for lecturers being prepared to teach different levels, as employees who says they have the right to choose - employees have to do what they're told, just the same as any other staff.
42
25/03/2021 13:00:50 1 1
bbc
No! Employees usually contract to do a certain range of tasks. They can't then be forced to do something outside of this.
53
25/03/2021 14:14:54 2 0
bbc
Er no. University contracts usually state something like ' teaching on any level programme may be required at times'. As a lecturer I caught from foundation year to level 6. The only teaching I could not undertake was doctoral supervision.
38
25/03/2021 12:49:02 8 2
bbc
As someone who teaches teachers, I can assure you that the pay is not 'too high'. It is below or at best equal to other graduate positions, graduate recruits won't compare their potential salary with those of unskilled or semi-skilled positions. I have lost many aspiring teachers, who would make great science or STEM teachers because they can get more money in retail, finance etc.
Removed
44
25/03/2021 13:20:43 7 2
bbc
There used to be a funded careers service, with fully trained and specialist careers advisers, going into every secondary school. They not only advised about A level choice for particular degrees and careers, they advised on Apprenticeships, options at Year 9 and had an employment placement service for school leavers for whom the academic route wasn't what they wanted.
52
25/03/2021 14:10:55 8 1
bbc
and in my school the careers service was rubbish. Many teachers and tutors give poor advice that is outdated.
23
25/03/2021 12:07:23 9 0
bbc
This was true back when I left public school to do a science degree. The gap between school and uni in the basic laboratory skills, techniques and kit was significant. Almost as though the unis and schools didn't talk to each other and only communicated via A level grades. ...
15
25/03/2021 11:17:15 17 4
bbc
'The report stresses that young people need "early engagement" in careers information and advice, with one in three students knowing that university was an option for them at primary school.'

For goodness sake, I didn't know what a University was at primary school, there was plenty of time to find out about them later!
46
25/03/2021 13:56:47 4 0
bbc
I did, and I thought that to go there I would need to be incredibly clever - which I knew I wasn't

But in primary school I did know what I wanted to do, and that required a University education (definitely NOT a Uni education)

Strangely enough, it turned out I was clever enough (although I still didn't believe it) and managed to end up in the career I wanted
172
ww
26/03/2021 16:54:18 0 0
bbc
Proof again of the old point - the second a child knows what they want to be the sooner they do well at school as then they are working to achieve their goal. Other students are merely doing schoolwork to keep out of teacher / parent trouble and so do not really care about education. And fail.
41
25/03/2021 12:49:58 22 4
bbc
The root of the problem here, as with so many things, is Blair. I don't think that he intended so many to go to university, it was meant to be further education in general. But being Blair and not thinking things through, he didn't factor in that a laptop and a handful of books are way cheaper than workshops, machinery and industrial materials! So lots of BAs, very few useful, practical course.
47
25/03/2021 13:58:57 17 1
bbc
I recall a conservation in Taiwan, with people in their 20’s. They said the degree options were law, engineering and medicine. They could not comprehend the concept of a media studies degree or similar. Engineering universities next to main semiconductor companies, employing thousands of graduates: now all leading chips made there. Government and industry working together, unlike Blair.
169
ww
26/03/2021 16:48:38 0 0
bbc
Not Blair's fault - it's a western world fault. University should be about useful STEM courses not self fulfilment courses. Spot the way Australia now charges less for useful courses (like medicine ) and more for pointless courses (art degrees).
27
25/03/2021 12:19:12 6 7
bbc
Many teenagers need encouragement to apply for courses that they are academically suited to. Those with supportive and engaged parents at at a huge advantage over those with parents who really aren't interested.

That's why re-establishing schools careers officers is so very important.
48
25/03/2021 14:01:02 4 2
bbc
Many teenagers need encouragement to apply for courses that they are academically suited to.

Apart from any cavils I might have with your grammar, does it not occur to you that they should be seeking courses and jobs that will engage and nurture their intellectual abilities resulting in them "working for 'old rope'" ie jobs which they enjoy doing?
36
sci
25/03/2021 12:45:23 1 2
bbc
Foundation Level teaching is not dumbing it down, but is transformatory teaching and can be harder (to teach); it is helping the students. Teaching is a Vocation. Lots of unis already run foundation years. As for lecturers being prepared to teach different levels, as employees who says they have the right to choose - employees have to do what they're told, just the same as any other staff.
49
25/03/2021 14:02:52 3 0
bbc
Teaching is only a vocation for school teachers. For many university lecturers I've come across, it's a necessary evil: they'd much rather spend all their time doing research and writing journal articles.
106
25/03/2021 22:41:26 0 0
bbc
Largely because Universities tend to reward their Staff on the basis of their research performance rather than their abilities in teaching.
3
25/03/2021 10:38:11 1 2
bbc
Universities need to do more to educate parents/pupils about how they choose candidates. To explain what subjects lead to doing their courses. Parents can then help pupils to think about their subject options after GCSE. Schools, 6th forms are more concerned with getting any exam results, or for their own dept. to be objective in giving advice about life after education.
50
25/03/2021 14:05:05 3 1
bbc
All this information is available on university websites or at open days.
1
MVP
25/03/2021 10:22:40 15 3
bbc
I suspect the issue here is that some universities use aggressive marketing to attract students who are lulled into enrolling for courses that are unsuitable.
51
25/03/2021 14:08:15 0 6
bbc
Don't think this is the case. Students expectations do not meet the reality of the course or the course is poorly delivered and students vote with their feet.
44
25/03/2021 13:20:43 7 2
bbc
There used to be a funded careers service, with fully trained and specialist careers advisers, going into every secondary school. They not only advised about A level choice for particular degrees and careers, they advised on Apprenticeships, options at Year 9 and had an employment placement service for school leavers for whom the academic route wasn't what they wanted.
52
25/03/2021 14:10:55 8 1
bbc
and in my school the careers service was rubbish. Many teachers and tutors give poor advice that is outdated.
54
25/03/2021 14:55:41 2 0
bbc
That was the point I was making - teachers are not equipped to give up to date careers advice. Careers Adviser , who were not teachers or employed by schools and (when they existed ) were better equipped to give this advice. If you had rubbish advice then you were unlucky - there are individuals who are bad at their job in every career.
80
25/03/2021 16:49:45 3 1
bbc
As most don't have any experience of jobs in the real world their advice is a bit like a nun giving tips on how to spice up ones sex life.
91
25/03/2021 20:09:35 2 0
bbc
Teachers have friends and family outside teaching so can easily offer advice if needed. It's parents that often offer bad advice, thinking that a degree is a golden ticket, when it's not.
42
25/03/2021 13:00:50 1 1
bbc
No! Employees usually contract to do a certain range of tasks. They can't then be forced to do something outside of this.
53
25/03/2021 14:14:54 2 0
bbc
Er no. University contracts usually state something like ' teaching on any level programme may be required at times'. As a lecturer I caught from foundation year to level 6. The only teaching I could not undertake was doctoral supervision.
81
25/03/2021 16:53:32 2 0
bbc
I stand corrected. My God, that really sucks!
52
25/03/2021 14:10:55 8 1
bbc
and in my school the careers service was rubbish. Many teachers and tutors give poor advice that is outdated.
54
25/03/2021 14:55:41 2 0
bbc
That was the point I was making - teachers are not equipped to give up to date careers advice. Careers Adviser , who were not teachers or employed by schools and (when they existed ) were better equipped to give this advice. If you had rubbish advice then you were unlucky - there are individuals who are bad at their job in every career.
55
25/03/2021 15:04:35 1 0
bbc
Back in n n the 1960s we were given no dad 've at all.It is was totally up to us to choose. No doubt mistakes were made.
56
25/03/2021 15:14:36 7 0
bbc
As a retired Academic Registrar, I would suggest every student should work for at least a year before contemplating 'what course'. Shadow the course for a month if possible.
May be I am 'out of date'?
Think if a degree is really needed at this stage - perhaps work + part time course would be better.
63
25/03/2021 15:50:57 1 10
bbc
"May be I am 'out of date'?"

You were never 'in date' and I suspect never an Academic Registrar with those views.
66
25/03/2021 16:22:38 3 0
bbc
Totally agree, or approach various companies to see whats involved.

Where people are out of date is with thinking that degrees are necessary. For some jobs yes, others not so.
67
25/03/2021 16:22:56 0 0
bbc
all uni places should be allocated to business, places filled by new intake.
two career paths mapped out, those that drop out, and those that get a degree.
no debts for individuals, and more useful degree courses, not pointless ones.
as business will not fund them
37
25/03/2021 12:34:09 7 0
bbc
Actually most schools have drastically cut laboratory work.

When I was at school a double period every week was devoted to chemistry practical, and the same for physics. Good luck finding many schools that do this today!
57
25/03/2021 15:15:36 0 0
bbc
This has been made worse with the latest changes to exam syllabuses in science, Practical assessments have been removed.
25
25/03/2021 12:11:42 9 2
bbc
My third year was almost entirely theoretical physics, theoretical chemistry, and some supporting maths classes.

Is that your idea of playtime?
58
25/03/2021 15:20:40 2 1
bbc
True, although mine was practical as well. I actually created a Surface Acoustic Wave filter from a lithium niobate crystal. That worked well in the just to start digital age.
59
25/03/2021 15:30:09 2 9
bbc
Nonsense ! Our teachers work tirelessly to ensure the best for their students and to suggest 40% are being let down has to be wrong. Huge numbers of teachers leave for work before 8.00am every morning and many don't get home until well after 4pm. And they do this week in week out (well actually 39 weeks in and13 weeks out).
64
25/03/2021 16:14:27 3 5
bbc
leave before 8:00
dont get home after 16:00

So you include commuting time & lunch time.

You arent going to convince people of how hard done by you are as the majority work the same hours.
78
25/03/2021 16:42:58 5 1
bbc
It doesn't matter how hard they work if a lot simply aren't up to the job.

The hard fact is that pay and conditions are not conducive to attracting and/or keeping good teachers. This is particularly true in vitally important STEM subjects.
88
25/03/2021 18:15:49 1 1
bbc
Looking busy is not the same as good or effective. If you are working in a steam age system no amount of 'hard work' will make it modern and efficient, effective.
38
25/03/2021 12:49:02 8 2
bbc
As someone who teaches teachers, I can assure you that the pay is not 'too high'. It is below or at best equal to other graduate positions, graduate recruits won't compare their potential salary with those of unskilled or semi-skilled positions. I have lost many aspiring teachers, who would make great science or STEM teachers because they can get more money in retail, finance etc.
60
25/03/2021 15:47:08 5 2
bbc
Therein lies the entitlement attitude. ‘Because they are graduates'. Entitled people seeking money and status not a vocation and dedication to a life doing something they like and enjoy. Remove the silly graduate hurdle only put in to justify the excess pay. Never used to be a requirement, back when teachers were respected more. Changed the 'type' grasping the jobs.
82
25/03/2021 16:56:56 4 5
bbc
"Remove the silly graduate hurdle"

It looks like someone has got degree envy??.
155
26/03/2021 13:34:49 0 1
bbc
No - the problem today is that higher education is, thanks to tuition fees, a marketplace. Graduates come out lumbered with large amounts of debt and are naturally attracted to professions with what you call "excess" pay.
61
25/03/2021 15:47:53 5 1
bbc
This is due to one thing: the poor quality lessons that are pushed on school (and increasingly FE) teachers by Ofsted. No wonder students are unprepared to be taught university-style when everyone is downgraded if they don't teach bitty lessons better suited to a kindergarten!
96
25/03/2021 21:39:26 4 0
bbc
Assess by examination and publish success of the institution based on the results of those examinations and you are bound to end up with an education system that trains people to pass the tests rather than develop cognitive skills.
27
25/03/2021 12:19:12 6 7
bbc
Many teenagers need encouragement to apply for courses that they are academically suited to. Those with supportive and engaged parents at at a huge advantage over those with parents who really aren't interested.

That's why re-establishing schools careers officers is so very important.
62
25/03/2021 15:48:34 7 1
bbc
Agree about school careers officers, but these people need to come from outside of the education sector. Most teachers have spent their lives in a classroom setting and have little appreciation of a path of employment that is not a teacher training college
152
26/03/2021 13:30:40 0 1
bbc
Wrong. Many teachers have come into the profession late from a variety of professions. Many teachers are married to non teachers. Most teachers didn't go to "teacher training colleges" but universities with friends that went onto other jobs.
56
25/03/2021 15:14:36 7 0
bbc
As a retired Academic Registrar, I would suggest every student should work for at least a year before contemplating 'what course'. Shadow the course for a month if possible.
May be I am 'out of date'?
Think if a degree is really needed at this stage - perhaps work + part time course would be better.
63
25/03/2021 15:50:57 1 10
bbc
"May be I am 'out of date'?"

You were never 'in date' and I suspect never an Academic Registrar with those views.
71
25/03/2021 16:29:54 3 0
bbc
from 1990 to 2000 at a college of London University - I have two Master's degrees - so fairly well qualified
59
25/03/2021 15:30:09 2 9
bbc
Nonsense ! Our teachers work tirelessly to ensure the best for their students and to suggest 40% are being let down has to be wrong. Huge numbers of teachers leave for work before 8.00am every morning and many don't get home until well after 4pm. And they do this week in week out (well actually 39 weeks in and13 weeks out).
64
25/03/2021 16:14:27 3 5
bbc
leave before 8:00
dont get home after 16:00

So you include commuting time & lunch time.

You arent going to convince people of how hard done by you are as the majority work the same hours.
79
25/03/2021 16:45:19 4 3
bbc
Shows how out of touch this person is with the real world, where a great many leave before 8:00 and don't get home until after 18:00.
97
25/03/2021 21:43:12 1 0
bbc
I have to say, I'm of the opinion that the education system isn't fit for purpose... and I've worked in education since 1994 (HE, FE and schools). This is not the educators' fault, though. It is the system they are expected to work within. As far as workload is concerned, though, unless you have worked in education you really don't have a clue. It's a vocation. Most work far far far longer hours
100
25/03/2021 21:45:02 3 2
bbc
Clearly you didn't understand the point of @whizzyone's comment yet you try to pretend on this HYS you know something about critical thinking!
65
25/03/2021 16:17:54 3 1
bbc
it makes a difference what you measure, and how you measure it.
the lower streams(not going to be put forward for exams) could tell you what money they could expect on a winning bet at the bookies.
the future of the country, 10 o'levels and off to uni, could not take chalk at darts, could not add 3 numbers up in his head, " I haven't got my calculator" .
56
25/03/2021 15:14:36 7 0
bbc
As a retired Academic Registrar, I would suggest every student should work for at least a year before contemplating 'what course'. Shadow the course for a month if possible.
May be I am 'out of date'?
Think if a degree is really needed at this stage - perhaps work + part time course would be better.
66
25/03/2021 16:22:38 3 0
bbc
Totally agree, or approach various companies to see whats involved.

Where people are out of date is with thinking that degrees are necessary. For some jobs yes, others not so.
56
25/03/2021 15:14:36 7 0
bbc
As a retired Academic Registrar, I would suggest every student should work for at least a year before contemplating 'what course'. Shadow the course for a month if possible.
May be I am 'out of date'?
Think if a degree is really needed at this stage - perhaps work + part time course would be better.
67
25/03/2021 16:22:56 0 0
bbc
all uni places should be allocated to business, places filled by new intake.
two career paths mapped out, those that drop out, and those that get a degree.
no debts for individuals, and more useful degree courses, not pointless ones.
as business will not fund them
77
25/03/2021 16:55:06 2 0
bbc
Works well for the large companies & the public sector. But majority work for SME s that could not afford to sponsor a students place at uni. Or am I missing your point?
34
25/03/2021 12:44:04 5 1
bbc
At my children's secondary school there was no interest in pushing those prediced a C or above at GCSE. Those who would naturally get an A grade were left to get one. The best teachers were put with the bordeline children to tip them into a C Grade - no one else mattered as the area was fairly affluent and tutors were available......
68
25/03/2021 16:23:50 1 1
bbc
Sadly the Law of unintended consequences.
40
25/03/2021 12:44:39 2 2
bbc
Exactly. Most teachers have never existed outside the education body. Careers advice needs to come from professionals in other fields. Teachers should only be allowed to give careers advice about going in to teaching! It would even be better to get brickies in to give careers advice!
69
25/03/2021 16:25:48 0 0
bbc
The best lecturers I had were the ones who worked in the real world or returned from the real world to work in academia.
104
25/03/2021 22:14:09 1 2
bbc
That was in 'the University of Life' presumably.
21
25/03/2021 12:03:22 2 0
bbc
I'd say it's all of them, should get a free foundation year to bring them up to speed after the terrible disruption to A-Levels.
70
25/03/2021 16:28:31 1 0
bbc
Thats what the 1st year of a degree is for many, plus a couple of sub-a level topics.
63
25/03/2021 15:50:57 1 10
bbc
"May be I am 'out of date'?"

You were never 'in date' and I suspect never an Academic Registrar with those views.
71
25/03/2021 16:29:54 3 0
bbc
from 1990 to 2000 at a college of London University - I have two Master's degrees - so fairly well qualified
76
25/03/2021 16:52:54 3 1
bbc
Be careful as SerpBurk tries to cancel people that he doesnt agree with. Suggest you do not release any other information that could be used to identify yourself.
103
25/03/2021 22:11:52 1 4
bbc
For an ex academic registrar you have some strange views about academia - I wonder how many of the academics in 'your' institution agreed with your views and suggested students shouldn't apply for places without having a year out first?
114
26/03/2021 08:28:48 1 4
bbc
As an academic registrar you were presumably responsible for administration rather than education in your institution, so I'm not clear how that qualifies you to determine what the best pre-University experience is for prospective students?
13
25/03/2021 11:11:49 23 5
bbc
And in other news - four fifths of university graduates poorly prepared for the real world'
72
25/03/2021 16:36:44 7 2
bbc
Only 80%, possible 97% ??
22
25/03/2021 12:04:08 5 7
bbc
Definitely, and most degrees can be completed in two years - the third year is just play-time.
73
25/03/2021 16:40:54 6 2
bbc
Found it the other way around, 1st year brought everyone up to the same level with a couple of easy subjects added.

By the 3rd year, it was certainly more advanced but not by much. And the Uni I went to was acknowledged as being one of the best in that subject area.
74
25/03/2021 16:45:50 9 3
bbc
It has ever been the same. Many students go to university expecting it to be easy after the trauma of A-levels (the hardest exams most kids are ever going to sit), They then find that, being assumed to be "grown up" they are not spoon-fed every bit of information they need and struggle to understand that they have to still do "homework".
Poor lambs.
135
26/03/2021 10:11:47 1 0
bbc
Very true, but it is not helped nowadays by the pass them at all costs forced on teachers by management.
75
25/03/2021 16:49:15 4 0
bbc
Critical thinking is certainly not being taught at any level. Maybe as a subtopic for philosophy but not in the main.

Used to help graduates come up to speed, and at times it was a struggle as they lacked: basics, analytical skills, common sense & inability of solving simple problems cleanly.

Due to the pandemic I dread to think what the next few years will produce.
99
25/03/2021 21:41:24 1 7
bbc
'Used to help graduates come up to speed, and at times it was a struggle as they lacked: basics, analytical skills, common sense & inability of solving simple problems cleanly.'

God help them if they were depending on you.
71
25/03/2021 16:29:54 3 0
bbc
from 1990 to 2000 at a college of London University - I have two Master's degrees - so fairly well qualified
76
25/03/2021 16:52:54 3 1
bbc
Be careful as SerpBurk tries to cancel people that he doesnt agree with. Suggest you do not release any other information that could be used to identify yourself.
102
25/03/2021 22:11:34 1 2
bbc
As usual spouting your anti-academia nonsense - and making ridiculous statements about cancelling people - you simply don't like people who disargee with your anti-academia views.
67
25/03/2021 16:22:56 0 0
bbc
all uni places should be allocated to business, places filled by new intake.
two career paths mapped out, those that drop out, and those that get a degree.
no debts for individuals, and more useful degree courses, not pointless ones.
as business will not fund them
77
25/03/2021 16:55:06 2 0
bbc
Works well for the large companies & the public sector. But majority work for SME s that could not afford to sponsor a students place at uni. Or am I missing your point?
59
25/03/2021 15:30:09 2 9
bbc
Nonsense ! Our teachers work tirelessly to ensure the best for their students and to suggest 40% are being let down has to be wrong. Huge numbers of teachers leave for work before 8.00am every morning and many don't get home until well after 4pm. And they do this week in week out (well actually 39 weeks in and13 weeks out).
78
25/03/2021 16:42:58 5 1
bbc
It doesn't matter how hard they work if a lot simply aren't up to the job.

The hard fact is that pay and conditions are not conducive to attracting and/or keeping good teachers. This is particularly true in vitally important STEM subjects.
110
26/03/2021 00:19:23 2 1
bbc
Teachers always think their pay and conditions are terrible - but most have never worked elsewhere. Compared to Local govt & other public sector jobs which require similar or higher qualifications you have a good deal - better wages, better increments & less prone to cuts/restructuring. Assuming you like teenagers & can deal with the stress of Ofsted, its a good deal.
64
25/03/2021 16:14:27 3 5
bbc
leave before 8:00
dont get home after 16:00

So you include commuting time & lunch time.

You arent going to convince people of how hard done by you are as the majority work the same hours.
79
25/03/2021 16:45:19 4 3
bbc
Shows how out of touch this person is with the real world, where a great many leave before 8:00 and don't get home until after 18:00.
87
25/03/2021 17:49:20 3 0
bbc
Oh dear, I feel a Monty Python sketch coming on ??
90
25/03/2021 20:07:52 1 1
bbc
Shouldn't you be trolling on the TES?
125
26/03/2021 09:34:32 1 0
bbc
Luxury! Sheer luxury.
I used to get out of my pit at 0340, and would commute to the bridge , arriving before 0400. I’d still be working at 2000 hrs, but sometimes get the rest of the evening off.
52
25/03/2021 14:10:55 8 1
bbc
and in my school the careers service was rubbish. Many teachers and tutors give poor advice that is outdated.
80
25/03/2021 16:49:45 3 1
bbc
As most don't have any experience of jobs in the real world their advice is a bit like a nun giving tips on how to spice up ones sex life.
119
26/03/2021 09:10:58 1 1
bbc
Not the old and lame 'real world' argument again - everyone is in the 'real word' apart from blowhards on HYS who somehow, but very misguidely, think they are superior to those who have careers in education.
53
25/03/2021 14:14:54 2 0
bbc
Er no. University contracts usually state something like ' teaching on any level programme may be required at times'. As a lecturer I caught from foundation year to level 6. The only teaching I could not undertake was doctoral supervision.
81
25/03/2021 16:53:32 2 0
bbc
I stand corrected. My God, that really sucks!
60
25/03/2021 15:47:08 5 2
bbc
Therein lies the entitlement attitude. ‘Because they are graduates'. Entitled people seeking money and status not a vocation and dedication to a life doing something they like and enjoy. Remove the silly graduate hurdle only put in to justify the excess pay. Never used to be a requirement, back when teachers were respected more. Changed the 'type' grasping the jobs.
82
25/03/2021 16:56:56 4 5
bbc
"Remove the silly graduate hurdle"

It looks like someone has got degree envy??.
83
25/03/2021 17:16:53 3 1
bbc
Not remotely. I got lucky and got an apprenticeship. Had a backstop college place lined up but time and experience soon saw those coming out with 'degrees' were badly thought of in the trade.

Still now I am a teacher too! Lol got asked to join, given a job I was not looking for, wanted or needed, in a totally different area. Part time from home. Money for old rope. Must practice whinging!
84
25/03/2021 17:29:53 4 0
bbc
Nurses didnt need a degree, now they do ??. So should a nurse get paid more doing the same job as another nurse because of a degree? After a certain amount of experience then no.
But the one with a degree may feel "entitled" because of the degree.

So as JamesStGeorge puts it "Remove the silly graduate hurdle" where **appropriate**.

82
25/03/2021 16:56:56 4 5
bbc
"Remove the silly graduate hurdle"

It looks like someone has got degree envy??.
83
25/03/2021 17:16:53 3 1
bbc
Not remotely. I got lucky and got an apprenticeship. Had a backstop college place lined up but time and experience soon saw those coming out with 'degrees' were badly thought of in the trade.

Still now I am a teacher too! Lol got asked to join, given a job I was not looking for, wanted or needed, in a totally different area. Part time from home. Money for old rope. Must practice whinging!
94
25/03/2021 21:30:50 2 2
bbc
You have answered your own query, people with degrees will be 'badly thought of' by people in a trade - by definition, this is a practical skill, so practical training is preferred. Teaching, is a knowledge-based profession. In fact, it is the oldest academic subject (the term doctor comes from the Latin term 'to teach'), pedagogy, learning theory, practical skills are all covered in degrees.
82
25/03/2021 16:56:56 4 5
bbc
"Remove the silly graduate hurdle"

It looks like someone has got degree envy??.
84
25/03/2021 17:29:53 4 0
bbc
Nurses didnt need a degree, now they do ??. So should a nurse get paid more doing the same job as another nurse because of a degree? After a certain amount of experience then no.
But the one with a degree may feel "entitled" because of the degree.

So as JamesStGeorge puts it "Remove the silly graduate hurdle" where **appropriate**.

132
26/03/2021 09:47:03 2 1
bbc
Those with a degree will also have a student loan to pay. Perhaps paying tuition etc is inflationary.
156
26/03/2021 13:35:16 0 1
bbc
The standard of nursing training has increased greatly because of the degree.
14
25/03/2021 11:13:41 6 0
bbc
Definitely. Perhaps some STEM subjects should be exempt, as they require continuity, but you shouldn't be allowed to do a BA course until you can prove that you have worked int he real world for a few years. It would lead to a lot less people wasting three years and being attached to a debt ball and chain.
85
25/03/2021 17:32:04 0 4
bbc
STEM shouldnt be excluded.
2
25/03/2021 10:33:49 12 3
bbc
I think it would be worthwhile if people took a year or two out of education before deciding on university.

I get that it makes sense to get as much education done in one long run then commit to work, but a bit of travel or work (or both) at 18/19/20 might change your mind. I did volunteer work overseas for a year when I was 18 & came back with a different perspective and different priorities.
86
sj
25/03/2021 17:38:51 1 0
bbc
But that wouldn't help anyone to know which A-levels to take, in order to qualify for the degree course that they are interested in. If for example you don't take maths, you just can't apply for many STEM subjects.
79
25/03/2021 16:45:19 4 3
bbc
Shows how out of touch this person is with the real world, where a great many leave before 8:00 and don't get home until after 18:00.
87
25/03/2021 17:49:20 3 0
bbc
Oh dear, I feel a Monty Python sketch coming on ??
59
25/03/2021 15:30:09 2 9
bbc
Nonsense ! Our teachers work tirelessly to ensure the best for their students and to suggest 40% are being let down has to be wrong. Huge numbers of teachers leave for work before 8.00am every morning and many don't get home until well after 4pm. And they do this week in week out (well actually 39 weeks in and13 weeks out).
88
25/03/2021 18:15:49 1 1
bbc
Looking busy is not the same as good or effective. If you are working in a steam age system no amount of 'hard work' will make it modern and efficient, effective.
18
25/03/2021 11:47:59 3 1
bbc
All fair points to an extent - but physical social interaction is a different thing to electronic communication. You can't play in a sports team, mix with flatmates/course mates, etc in the same way. And lets face it, the social aspect is crucial element for most students too - its part of the educational process.
89
25/03/2021 19:00:06 2 1
bbc
Nonsense. Playing games, sport, social chit chat, have zero need to be related to any university. Life goes on wherever you are. It is zero part of education, let alone anything to do with a university course. Far too much playing about is seen as the point of going away to university instead of the education. That must cease. Most course need minuscule, if any at all, attendance.
79
25/03/2021 16:45:19 4 3
bbc
Shows how out of touch this person is with the real world, where a great many leave before 8:00 and don't get home until after 18:00.
90
25/03/2021 20:07:52 1 1
bbc
Shouldn't you be trolling on the TES?
52
25/03/2021 14:10:55 8 1
bbc
and in my school the careers service was rubbish. Many teachers and tutors give poor advice that is outdated.
91
25/03/2021 20:09:35 2 0
bbc
Teachers have friends and family outside teaching so can easily offer advice if needed. It's parents that often offer bad advice, thinking that a degree is a golden ticket, when it's not.
92
Ben
25/03/2021 20:15:49 4 1
bbc
I spent 20+ years advising Sixth Form students on this. There were always some who didn't want to listen/knew better etc. These were often the ones who dropped out or cam back to complain - 'No-one told me studying History would involve writing essays' or 'No-one said Manchester Uni was going to be like Manchester Uni'.
Buyer beware. There's no shortage of information.
93
25/03/2021 20:47:10 3 3
bbc
So you saying that there are students who have **not** been taught how to sort the facts from the propaganda & PR?

Some of the Grads I have dealt with seem to have unrealistic view on how industry works. Strange how their views were warped during Uni.
92
Ben
25/03/2021 20:15:49 4 1
bbc
I spent 20+ years advising Sixth Form students on this. There were always some who didn't want to listen/knew better etc. These were often the ones who dropped out or cam back to complain - 'No-one told me studying History would involve writing essays' or 'No-one said Manchester Uni was going to be like Manchester Uni'.
Buyer beware. There's no shortage of information.
93
25/03/2021 20:47:10 3 3
bbc
So you saying that there are students who have **not** been taught how to sort the facts from the propaganda & PR?

Some of the Grads I have dealt with seem to have unrealistic view on how industry works. Strange how their views were warped during Uni.
98
25/03/2021 21:40:30 2 4
bbc
Surely when graduates come into a firm it is up to the firm to explain how things work there or are you so lazy, you expect others to do it for you?
83
25/03/2021 17:16:53 3 1
bbc
Not remotely. I got lucky and got an apprenticeship. Had a backstop college place lined up but time and experience soon saw those coming out with 'degrees' were badly thought of in the trade.

Still now I am a teacher too! Lol got asked to join, given a job I was not looking for, wanted or needed, in a totally different area. Part time from home. Money for old rope. Must practice whinging!
94
25/03/2021 21:30:50 2 2
bbc
You have answered your own query, people with degrees will be 'badly thought of' by people in a trade - by definition, this is a practical skill, so practical training is preferred. Teaching, is a knowledge-based profession. In fact, it is the oldest academic subject (the term doctor comes from the Latin term 'to teach'), pedagogy, learning theory, practical skills are all covered in degrees.
95
25/03/2021 21:36:08 1 0
bbc
I went to university as an undergraduate in 89-92. Though I passed with honours, I still have anxiety dreams and terrible nightmares about the experience. Some of this was a result of some awful advice I was given when choosing A levels.

The system, for some, has long been poorly served, with ill-equipped (academically) students essentially selecting courses by guessing what they involve.
61
25/03/2021 15:47:53 5 1
bbc
This is due to one thing: the poor quality lessons that are pushed on school (and increasingly FE) teachers by Ofsted. No wonder students are unprepared to be taught university-style when everyone is downgraded if they don't teach bitty lessons better suited to a kindergarten!
96
25/03/2021 21:39:26 4 0
bbc
Assess by examination and publish success of the institution based on the results of those examinations and you are bound to end up with an education system that trains people to pass the tests rather than develop cognitive skills.
145
26/03/2021 11:37:35 0 0
bbc
I agree. I used to teach in a sixth form college, I've now slithered into a university. At the sixth form college I'd teach the subject for most of the year, then spend a few lessons at the end on 'exam prep' - result: students well-versed in (& loving) the subject who also passed their exams. Not to Ofsted's taste, though. They advocated test-driven teaching.
64
25/03/2021 16:14:27 3 5
bbc
leave before 8:00
dont get home after 16:00

So you include commuting time & lunch time.

You arent going to convince people of how hard done by you are as the majority work the same hours.
97
25/03/2021 21:43:12 1 0
bbc
I have to say, I'm of the opinion that the education system isn't fit for purpose... and I've worked in education since 1994 (HE, FE and schools). This is not the educators' fault, though. It is the system they are expected to work within. As far as workload is concerned, though, unless you have worked in education you really don't have a clue. It's a vocation. Most work far far far longer hours
124
26/03/2021 09:24:50 0 0
bbc
And no other profession work long hours? Or professionals doing CPD in their own time because the companies are too naïve to keep their staff trained?

Education certainly needs a shake up & perhaps education by AI will be a way forward
93
25/03/2021 20:47:10 3 3
bbc
So you saying that there are students who have **not** been taught how to sort the facts from the propaganda & PR?

Some of the Grads I have dealt with seem to have unrealistic view on how industry works. Strange how their views were warped during Uni.
98
25/03/2021 21:40:30 2 4
bbc
Surely when graduates come into a firm it is up to the firm to explain how things work there or are you so lazy, you expect others to do it for you?
116
26/03/2021 08:37:59 2 0
bbc
A friend of mine, a partner in a firm of solicitors with a significant intake of law graduates every year, has reached the conclusion that many graduates have no concept of the hours of work demanded of them, or the need to further study, on their own initiative. He holds schools and Universities to blame for failing to spell out that the world of work, isn’t like school/ university life.
75
25/03/2021 16:49:15 4 0
bbc
Critical thinking is certainly not being taught at any level. Maybe as a subtopic for philosophy but not in the main.

Used to help graduates come up to speed, and at times it was a struggle as they lacked: basics, analytical skills, common sense & inability of solving simple problems cleanly.

Due to the pandemic I dread to think what the next few years will produce.
99
25/03/2021 21:41:24 1 7
bbc
'Used to help graduates come up to speed, and at times it was a struggle as they lacked: basics, analytical skills, common sense & inability of solving simple problems cleanly.'

God help them if they were depending on you.
64
25/03/2021 16:14:27 3 5
bbc
leave before 8:00
dont get home after 16:00

So you include commuting time & lunch time.

You arent going to convince people of how hard done by you are as the majority work the same hours.
100
25/03/2021 21:45:02 3 2
bbc
Clearly you didn't understand the point of @whizzyone's comment yet you try to pretend on this HYS you know something about critical thinking!