Where are stalled England going wrong?
22/03/2021
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sport
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rugbyunion
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Slow starts. Record points conceded. A sky-high penalty count. How England's Six Nations campaign fell short on multiple fronts.
Prem clubs have too much power for coaches like Edwards who will want more control of availability of players
Wouldn't we just love that. He does far more than defence too. I was told he wasn't interested as lets face it he doesn't match the RFUs idea of an ideal manager. That for the only man to be International at League and Union, won European as manager, coached Lions, Wales and now France. Politics I guess. But he needs to be found a place. Just too good to be ignored.
Fella,look into why Edward's wont except any call from England.you might find out a thing or two
Problems
Core of team not played for month:
1 Not match fit (pace behind the opposition)
2 not played new law interpretations (high penalty count)
3 Game plan designed for old law interpretations (outplayed at ruck/high penalty count)
Remedy: select alternative squad
1 inexperienced
2 Unfamiliar rest of squad
3 Not fit enough for international game
QED: wait for next year it will be better
Core of team not played for month:
1 Not match fit (pace behind the opposition)
2 not played new law interpretations (high penalty count)
3 Game plan designed for old law interpretations (outplayed at ruck/high penalty count)
Remedy: select alternative squad
1 inexperienced
2 Unfamiliar rest of squad
3 Not fit enough for international game
QED: wait for next year it will be better
A sensible comment at last. Missed opportunity but plenty of time to get it right.
In order to provide wider experience you have to select different players occasionally, as an incremental process. EJ’s selection policy has been absurd - how did he select Heinz in front of Spencer? EJ has no crystal ball to identify which players will be successful at international level - he needs to drop established players if they are not performing to give in form players a chance.
Absolutely! Similar scenario to Pivac with Wales. People calling for Jamie Roberts to come in but he stuck to his guns and tried another approach which has seemed to work.
He maintained a core of experienced players but has blooded a lot of youngsters. He hasn't been afraid to give them minutes on the park. Possibly time for EJ to do similar and pick players like Simmonds on form.
He maintained a core of experienced players but has blooded a lot of youngsters. He hasn't been afraid to give them minutes on the park. Possibly time for EJ to do similar and pick players like Simmonds on form.
When the wrecking ball approach with tuilagi and the vunipolas doesn’t work, there is no plan B.
And neither vunipola is currently international fit, either physically or mentally
Sums up why we aren't seeing the other number 8's mentioned in the article, Jones seems to just pick that position by the number on the scales rather than form, skill, intelligence... He's set them up to play crash ball so much that he can't afford to pick an 8 with 10-20KGs less mass.
The Vunipola's wouldn't get into any other home nation team.
funny how the only solution to the englad game is a group of Samoans..so sad
Star man Itoje, beaten in every stat by Alun Wyn Jones (35)
Billy Vunipola, star man at 8 beaten in almost all stats by Falatau.
Jonny May, star winger, left for dead by Rees-Zammit
Tom Curry playing against the incredible Welsh back-row almost single-handed.
No settled FB, no competition, no being dropped for indiscipline because Jones has not built strength in depth. Best team in England though.
Billy Vunipola, star man at 8 beaten in almost all stats by Falatau.
Jonny May, star winger, left for dead by Rees-Zammit
Tom Curry playing against the incredible Welsh back-row almost single-handed.
No settled FB, no competition, no being dropped for indiscipline because Jones has not built strength in depth. Best team in England though.
The Vunipolas are past their sell by date now after this championship, surely. Mako was hopeless on Saturday and both have been poor throughout the tournament. Surely England have some fresh options?
Really excellent point
Pick the in form players that are playing regularly at an appropriate level. Professional rugby does not allow for favourites and friendships, there is a duty to the nation that you represent.
You think the French clubs have less power?? France couldn’t even agree to the release their players for the Autumn Nations Cup.
Sean Edwards will never coach england in any capacity, he's a working class lad with working class roots, this is why he fitted in so well in Wales, just like being amongst Wigan people, it's also why he fit's in so well in France and conversely why he won't fit in with the england set up, to many public school boys involved off the field and rooted firmly with upper class values.
You do realise your talking about France their league is everything,all powerful and the richest Example November England v France
No way. The French clubs have more clout and hate giving up players to Francd but Edward's makes it work.
He really can’t. There is plan A or plan A. His loyalty to certain players is undeserved when they should have been dropped a long time ago. The ill discipline is a major fault and result in losses. His plan is anti rugby, kick high, hit hard. It’s clear he doesn’t watch the Premiership as matchesare played with free flowing rugby. Those players don’t have a chance
not picking form players in premiership and sticking with old guard?
Especially the sarries players who had 2-3 month off before start of tournament, you can’t afford to ‘gain’ match sharpness during comp as found out against Scotland first game.
Especially the sarries players who had 2-3 month off before start of tournament, you can’t afford to ‘gain’ match sharpness during comp as found out against Scotland first game.
Eddie Jones talks as though he doesn’t care. He used the 6 nations as an attempt to play his saracens into form. If he gets sacked, don’t be surprised if a certain club employs him. If he were the coach of Wales, he wouldn’t have been allowed by his paymasters or the people to select the squad that he chose.
He does not care about 6 nations, why should he care about games against Italy/Scotland? they are miles away when RWC starts. Keep on keeping on EJ
"If he were the coach of Wales, he wouldn’t have been allowed by his paymasters or the people to select the squad that he chose." - Correct, because they were all English.
It seems to me that win lose or draw the next games that on field personel need to change, the likes of Ewels, Genge, Randal, Spencer, Simmonds, Lawrence, Odogwu, Smith and Malins all need to play matches as starters as we need to give them experience and see if they are really not as good as the current starters, plus it would seem that Ed Robinson isn't making it in the coaching of 15s sadly
Genge, Lawrence and Ewels look like good club players, not international standard. Spencer and Randal can’t both start unless one plays out of position (I’d start spencer and add spark with Randall off the bench). Simmonds, smith and malins should be players you build around.
Also agree about Ed Robinson, out of his depth.
Also agree about Ed Robinson, out of his depth.
It’s the players or the coach or a bit of both. I suggest the coach. England are NOT “in transition”. Most were at RWC 2019 and will be available for the next one. They have not become bad: they are not playing well because the coach is ruining them. Time to go, EJ. I certainly won’t miss your nastiness and bullying of female interviewers.
To claim on Saturday that he was proud of the “fight” of his players and then to admit that they “fell off” shows a contempt for reality that would get him a job in Downing Street
Your right he was probably stupid enough to vote for brexit
Removed
What about starting with the out-of-form, out-of-match-fitness Sarries? Surely Eddie's loyalty to Itoje, Farrell, George et al has cost them big this tournament.
Farrell is deeply out of sorts and Itoje clumsy at best with the discipline. Both great players - in form - but Eddie is imbuing the same sense of entitlement that seemingly ruled out Cipriani.
A missed opportunity to blood the future.
Farrell is deeply out of sorts and Itoje clumsy at best with the discipline. Both great players - in form - but Eddie is imbuing the same sense of entitlement that seemingly ruled out Cipriani.
A missed opportunity to blood the future.
Maitland has been very good for scotland. Your theses doesn't hold water.
Most of the Series players, I would agree, although if still say that Itoje has more than justified his selection. He's been unlucky on a couple of calls.
Being an Englishman of Welsh descent, I'd not need an anthem in order to get me ready to play for the rose, far from it. To 'prepare' all you'd need to do is witness the disdain and listen to the vitriol directed towards the English. Anyone who can't put their backs into playing isn't worth the shirt.
I think that's an easy stick to beat Jones with (even if it's the right one)
Too many non-Sarries players looked either out of form or off the pace.
Youngs, Wilson, Genge, Hill all looked off the pace. Too many players had poor 6 Nations to lay the blame so conveniently at Saracens door.
Too many non-Sarries players looked either out of form or off the pace.
Youngs, Wilson, Genge, Hill all looked off the pace. Too many players had poor 6 Nations to lay the blame so conveniently at Saracens door.
It boils down to money, the RFU I doubt can afford to thank him and show him the door. Big mistake, hopefully learned, to extend his contract. This England team reminds me of the French side that lost it's identity a few seasons ago and that isn't down to the players. Our 8,9,10,12 and 15 are simply not the best players in those positions in England!
I agree with you about 8, 9, 12 and 15. However, take a proper look at how George Ford manages the game when he's playing. You'll see hes the play maker and the start of most tries. I agree he has had a couple of bad games but he's arguably one of the best players in the world at 10, he just gets a lot of stick for his size.
We also need to get rid of the box kicking agenda.
We also need to get rid of the box kicking agenda.
Apparently, there is a break clause in his contract and it can be ended.
Escape clauses apparently on both sides for EJ's contract. If there is no financial penalty for letting Jones go, then he should go. No question in my mind. Squad is too stale. Same players going through the motions, still getting picked, standard drops and we wonder why we lose to Scotland and are a long way second best to Wales and Ireland?
Agree the issues are in the spine of the team.
To give 10 the benefit of the doubt, there's not much he can do if 9's under instruction to kick the ball away at every opportunity, and the other 3 aren't fit. Not to mention the fact 12 and 15 are a 10 and 13 by trade.
To give 10 the benefit of the doubt, there's not much he can do if 9's under instruction to kick the ball away at every opportunity, and the other 3 aren't fit. Not to mention the fact 12 and 15 are a 10 and 13 by trade.
The players are too complacent knowing their place is more or less secure. Bad performances do not result in team changes.
Biggest mistake was trying to play a tournament with 28 players and allowing no room for loss of form and recruiting and trying out new players no forward planning,he backed himself into a corner.As for playing unfit championship players ridiculous,Sarries players are normally super fit but they’ve not been playing.
The backing by players who’s chances of a Lions tour have all but disappeared is a classic case of Stockholm Syndrome. Sorry to have have to tell them but the Emperor’s got no clothes.
You are spot on Ireland was a dead rubber, yet when malins was injured did he let a youngster get some pitch time, no he brought back Daly who has missed more tackles this 6N' than the Italians. No EJ your too stubborn . The players are there but EJ will not adapt and adjust, so please walk away EJ you have made your money and exceeded your own fixed sell by date.
Look at the passion of the other 6N teams, and England were stale or simply not bothered. The team and staff need a shake up & deadwood pruned.
It’s a fundamental issue to do with identity per-se and what England stands for. Why does England use God Save the Queen - the UK anthem - as its anthem? What is the English one? Disjointed identity
I don't think that's passion, I think they are overcoached - they have to do this here, that there, kick when it's this. The only time they seemed to be playing the game themselves rather than being remotely controlled by Jones was France. No wonder they seem to hate being out there.
Couldn't agree more- the body language as they came out in Dublin BEFORE the anthems didn't really suggest they'd had a stirring team talk!
An abysmal comp for England and as soon as the squad was announced my expectations hit rock bottom . This was an opportunity missed to introduce and play new talent - instead Jones stuck with the usual and played a group of guys who had not played any rugby since the late autumn . Fit and fresh but miles of the match pace re international rugby . Will win nothing with blinkered Jones.
Agreed. I love this quote from Bobby Moore: after an England match, "See you next week, boss". Alf Ramsey, "If you're picked lad, if you're picked."
For me this is your biggest problem and I don’t see the obvious answer. When your forwards are running well then Ford is the option, but he folds badly under pressure. Farrell is the more consistent.
By keeping Farrell to cover Ford’s weaknesses you lose both a running threat and any creation at 12.
Perhaps should be playing one as starter and one as finisher depending on the game?
By keeping Farrell to cover Ford’s weaknesses you lose both a running threat and any creation at 12.
Perhaps should be playing one as starter and one as finisher depending on the game?
Well, that's right too, but the main reason we need to drop him is he can't do the captain's job onfield well enough. His boot is still reliable but every other aspect of his play is average at best.
I agree. He never looks like he's enjoying himself. As a leader you need others to want to play and not be scared. And that is how England look, scared.
Farrell seems to have lost his ability to drive and motivate England when they are on the back foot. He was almost invisible on Saturday afternoon. Not sure if that's related to playing behind closed doors or instructions from the management team but something's not there. As for discipline the stats speak for themselves.
Dropping Farrell? It makes a statement of intent, but the wrong one. Dropping a highly talented captain after taking the team to the WC finals grabs a headline and misunderstands the problem. They need to rebuild team morale and belief, as ill-discipline slow starts and dysfunctionality are symptoms of this. They need to rebuild hope and a future vision to overcome this tough covid era in rugby.
Thought we looked rudderless when he went off on Sat.
Why? How would dropping your best player improve the team?
Maybe Andy, but the tactics aren't his fault.
England are not firing with both Farrell and Ford. Jones can't drop Farrell although Ford is the better conduit for attacking rugby. The tactics are formulaic. Box kicks should be outlawed. They are boring me to tears. The players are tired.. and i don't mean physically. Must be so frustrating for players such as fly halves Smith and Cipriani to know they will never play for England under Jones.
True,farrell is not capable of playing anything expansive.i really dont know how he gets in the side.im so pleased in Wales,Scotland and Ireland have got playmakers who can call it as they see it.all of them must be ahead of him for Lions as well as Sheedy.jones is a dinosaur who has outstayed his welcome and doesnt like imaginative players so has got no future.
EJ's thinking is breaking they gain line at test level is incredibly difficult with really well drilled defences.
So the plan - dominant pack, kick for position, work set pieces and flyers in the back 3 to capitalise on poor kicking from the oppo.
Hence the BY/GF/OF axis with Slades left boot as an added option.
Problem however is if the pack is 2nd best, and you keep giving away penalties.
So the plan - dominant pack, kick for position, work set pieces and flyers in the back 3 to capitalise on poor kicking from the oppo.
Hence the BY/GF/OF axis with Slades left boot as an added option.
Problem however is if the pack is 2nd best, and you keep giving away penalties.
100 % correct
He no more than a place kicker ..
Slow not creative and a liability has been for a couple of years now
He no more than a place kicker ..
Slow not creative and a liability has been for a couple of years now
Yes. England's issues are at 9, 10, 12, & 15. Leadership too. Ben Youngs is not your 9 going forward, Ford & Farrell are abysmal, and Daly is not a class 15. The captain needs to be in the pack. I can't see where Jones is trying to take the team either.
Farrell is a problem no doubt about it. He looks good when behind a dominant pack but his game offers no threat when the forwards aren't performing.
Good bye Eddie Jones.
Farrell. Ford and Youngs, please. Slade can play 12 or `13 and let's see if Lawrence is any good. Bill V is fat and slow, Mako unfit maybe too? Ewers looked good
Well Eddie could certainly try Cipriani and Smith at 10 and look at different combinations across 15 and the wings. Daly is valuable but possibly not at 15. Pack is losing out to other teams which is where the indiscipline is creeping in. Vunipola brothers should be given a break. Youngs although top class is possibly too slow now - needs to have a super fast replacement to complement him.
I don't Farrell should be dropped but we do need a captain that the referees respect.
I don't know who would be best suited?
I don't see much prem action but is there not better young players to replace the likes of youngs, daly, etc.
My rugby knowledge isn't great but can someone tell me if Ford is actually any good? His kicking seems aimless and he just seems a weak link to me.
We miss underhill
I don't know who would be best suited?
I don't see much prem action but is there not better young players to replace the likes of youngs, daly, etc.
My rugby knowledge isn't great but can someone tell me if Ford is actually any good? His kicking seems aimless and he just seems a weak link to me.
We miss underhill
Eddie would never drop him and that's the problem. Take away his kicking Farrell offers nothing
It’s the players or the coach or a bit of both. I suggest the coach. England are NOT “in transition”. Most were at RWC 2019 and will be available for the next one. They have not become bad: they are not playing well because the coach is ruining them. Time to go, EJ. I certainly won’t miss your nastiness and bullying of female interviewers.
Enjoyed the journey Eddie but its time to get your coat lad!
OK. Replace him with which coach? Who would want the job with the Eng media so critical constantly. We had a terrible season 2018 and regrouped. Can we do it again?
It is jobs for the boys, same squad and team regardless of form, and regardless of whether they have had any game time.
It needs freshening up.
Jones is not up for the role, his attitude stinks more intent of disrespecting the opposition or pressurising the referee before the matches.
It needs freshening up.
Jones is not up for the role, his attitude stinks more intent of disrespecting the opposition or pressurising the referee before the matches.
Eddie Jones talks as though he doesn’t care. He used the 6 nations as an attempt to play his saracens into form. If he gets sacked, don’t be surprised if a certain club employs him. If he were the coach of Wales, he wouldn’t have been allowed by his paymasters or the people to select the squad that he chose.
England have been on wrong end of some clearly biased refereeing which has not helped ie the French referee gifting Wales 14 POINTS
Haha more deluded nonsense this is music to the ears of the Celtic countries all 3 of whom gubbed you this year by a combined total of 83-48
Refereeing absolutely nothing to do with abysmal England performance during competition.
Laughable whinging comment. Take away the 14 points 'gifted to Wales, add on the 3pts for the penalty kick then remove England's Watson's forward pass try and the final score would have been 29 -17 to Wales! BTW Have you seen the video of Farrell's cross field kick for Saracens to Ashton. What goes round comes round! Grow up mate!
It seems to me that win lose or draw the next games that on field personel need to change, the likes of Ewels, Genge, Randal, Spencer, Simmonds, Lawrence, Odogwu, Smith and Malins all need to play matches as starters as we need to give them experience and see if they are really not as good as the current starters, plus it would seem that Ed Robinson isn't making it in the coaching of 15s sadly
Genge, Lawrence and Ewels look like good club players, not international standard. Spencer and Randal can’t both start unless one plays out of position (I’d start spencer and add spark with Randall off the bench). Simmonds, smith and malins should be players you build around.
Also agree about Ed Robinson, out of his depth.
Also agree about Ed Robinson, out of his depth.
Everyone in Wales would have sacked Wayne Pivec this time last year , Sometimes we just have to be patient and accept in a 2 team contest that 1 team has to lose , This was not our year, Disappointed but not downhearted we will return stronger next year
Disillusioned and downhearted . England were awful - no excuse losing to relative average Scottish , Irish and Welsh teams.
Performance against all these teams unacceptable . 2023 will be a disaster if Jones remains .
Performance against all these teams unacceptable . 2023 will be a disaster if Jones remains .
Wouldn't bank on it....Italy away ;-)
Clive Woodward won the WC and then crashed and burned afterwards. There is a lifespan to everything and Jones England career seems to be over.
A number of players in the team are a mile away from their proven high standards.
Billy Vinapola
Mako Vinapola
Daley
Farrel
George
Itoji (12 penalties)
Anyone spot the theme here?
Billy Vinapola
Mako Vinapola
Daley
Farrel
George
Itoji (12 penalties)
Anyone spot the theme here?
Itoje 1 penalty on Saturday
In fact from your list Itoje is the only one who would get a game for Scotland.
This is not a common thing, but england deserve their place, they are genuinely the fifth best side in a very evenly matched tournament.
This is not a common thing, but england deserve their place, they are genuinely the fifth best side in a very evenly matched tournament.
Itoji was one of the best players of the tournament. He conceded so many pens as he plays close to the edge however I think he's one of of few genuinely world class players in England
The fact you can’t spell their names correctly?
Pick the in form players. Just because their name was on the team sheet last time, doesn’t mean they get on this time. Learn to vary kicks.
In football it would be unusual for a second tier player to make the national team. It’d be even more unusual if that league were suspended and the players weren’t playing competitive games.
It’s been frustrating to watch and embarrassing to try to justify.
In football it would be unusual for a second tier player to make the national team. It’d be even more unusual if that league were suspended and the players weren’t playing competitive games.
It’s been frustrating to watch and embarrassing to try to justify.
Jones needs to go - as do some of the players - they are being picked on reputation and what they did some time since. Sam Simmonds in particular MUST be given a chance.
Eddie is a good coach, but needs two or three assistants around him who do not fear giving an honest opinion. Farrell is for some reason not challenged as a captain on the field by any so called senior players stepping up to shake the team into action. Give form players a chance over the summer, develop them for 2023, and the transition should be complete. Eddie can then jettison the old guard.
England have been on wrong end of some clearly biased refereeing which has not helped ie the French referee gifting Wales 14 POINTS
How you feeling after you choked in France shocking loss never mind you beat Eng by being gifted 14 points.So you should be happy see you in next rwc where you choke every time it matters.Bye bye
You can have your moment in the sun. We were cr@p this year. Well done!
He’s back. Disappeared completely after the 2019 6N until now. Why’s that? ??
Doing the same with the same gets the same results. Get a new leader in the forwards. Stop trying to over power every one. Fresh blood helps everyone. Move on.
Need to knock the ego and arrogance out of all the players, easier said than done but Jones has had his chance and this 6N has been an embarrassment, not sure how he can keep his job.
I want my team to play with arrogance but when you do that you have to back it up with results.
Spot on !!!
Eddie Jones talks as though he doesn’t care. He used the 6 nations as an attempt to play his saracens into form. If he gets sacked, don’t be surprised if a certain club employs him. If he were the coach of Wales, he wouldn’t have been allowed by his paymasters or the people to select the squad that he chose.
Get rid of Jones, he picks the team. Too many players not in form yet he still picks them? Bring in a young English coach!
Bring in the best forward thinking coach in the World - I could not care less if he is English or not .
Who?Best coach in the Prem is Pat Lam,Baxter won’t leave Exeter so come on tell us who you’d have?
Eddie Jones talked about resetting after the World Cup. The English Premiership has some exciting young players that are continually overlooked or mishandled when selected whilst EJ continues to pick the same starting players from the same cosy squad. England have gone backwards in so many ways it’s got to the point I enjoy watching France play more than my home country.
I only had time to watch one match on Saturday, so I watched the thrilling Grand Slam match rather than the drab dead rubber between England and Ireland.
Jones needs to go, but the RFU lacks the gumption and also probably the funds, so England will limp on, occasionally brilliant but more often terrible, until after the next World Cup.
Jones needs to go, but the RFU lacks the gumption and also probably the funds, so England will limp on, occasionally brilliant but more often terrible, until after the next World Cup.
Well said and picking unfit out of form Saracens players denies any logic.
There were some fabulous and exciting Prem games over the weekend - check them out on YouTube. Exeter and Harlequins playing brilliant, attacking, possession rugby. England’s game plan is to kick (poorly, Youngs, Ford and Farrell) and defend.
A chasm in tactics, which shows that the right players with the right tactics win games: Dombrandt and Simmons outstanding, ditto Care, Smith & Brown (!).
A chasm in tactics, which shows that the right players with the right tactics win games: Dombrandt and Simmons outstanding, ditto Care, Smith & Brown (!).
Seems illogical to keep picking Saracens players when they hardly have any game time. Possibly time to say farewell to the Vunipola brothers and George. Farrell isn't a good choice at inside centre and Elliot Daly should only be considered as a winger. EJ doesn't seem to want to pick Sarries players who have moved on like Spencer.
Jones like Townsend has their favourites .England are one dimentional give the ball to the one yard men .They should play Farrell at full back ,they only keep him for penalty and conversion kicks.
Correct. Of the 15 to start the RWC Final, 11 started on Saturday and Underhill, Tuilagi and Lawes would have done so if they were fit. The other was George. Hardly a reset.
Younger players will, rightly, look after themselves rather than wait for the 'dead mans shoes' of the opportunity to play for England.
Younger players will, rightly, look after themselves rather than wait for the 'dead mans shoes' of the opportunity to play for England.
Drop Youngs just for doing moisturiser adds.
Tell Eddie 'kick kick kick & kick again' Jones thanks for all hes done and bring in a modern run the ball coach. Bring in someone to sort the scrum out, its painful watching England fail in the scrum over and over again.
Tell Eddie 'kick kick kick & kick again' Jones thanks for all hes done and bring in a modern run the ball coach. Bring in someone to sort the scrum out, its painful watching England fail in the scrum over and over again.
He keeps on saying he has no idea why the players are not performing, therein lies the problem.
How can he keep his job?
A failure, refusing to change style,plan ,personnel.
Let’s not forget we have biggest number of players to choose from, the wealthiest country and huge fan base. When the RFU take their heads out of their collective backside it’ll dawn on then when rugby goes ppv. they’ll rely upon that loyal fan base. Well sorry not paying for that rubbish,
A failure, refusing to change style,plan ,personnel.
Let’s not forget we have biggest number of players to choose from, the wealthiest country and huge fan base. When the RFU take their heads out of their collective backside it’ll dawn on then when rugby goes ppv. they’ll rely upon that loyal fan base. Well sorry not paying for that rubbish,
I too did exactly that. And how is it I’m more excited to watch Hamish Watson play and break the game line? I’ve no issue with the ebb and flow of an English team winning and losing when they play fabulous rugby but when the team is clearly sitting in the doldrums then a catalyst for change is perhaps needed.
Have to laugh at someone down voting this totally factual comment.
Won one turnover, lost two; made 3 metres from 4 carries- where was he for the rest of the game?
What else did he do? Overshadowed in a big way by Beirne and Henderson.
I think Itoje is a marvellous player whose game is played right on the edge hence he can give away penalties. He would be one of my picks for the Lions. He consistently gives 100%.
One penalty but no impact. If he isn't on the edge then he's half the player. If you're on the edge, half the time you are overstepping the mark. Fall foul of the ref and he gets it in his head you are always offside, you are in trouble unless you are smart enough to re-calibrate. Itoje not managaing to re-calibrate atm for some reason (lack of match time this season?)
Simple. Sack the squirmy little T##t and get a decent manager. Oh and model yourself on the mighty Wales. Cymru am Byth.
There he is. The vitriolic, graceless, chippy little welsh fella. Up and at them early today.
But we want to win something . When did Wales win the world cup?? Yakki dar Son of Glyn dower. No
What like last year and where’s your grand slam still in Paris.
Time to get an English Head Coach for the English Team. I don't care what anyone says, only the English will truly look after the English no one else will, we are the most hated team in this tournament, the French refs proved that. Infact it should be changed from the 6 nations to 5 nations vs England
So bitter !..... Man up and just take it on the chin, can’t always blame the referee’s. The buck stops at the England coach, as he is the one who calls the shots and picks the team
It would have been 4 losses if they’d played France without Covid gate. Watched rugby tonight on BT & they somehow had Curry & Itoje in the team of the tournament. They’ve been terrible outside the France game. Curry in double digits for missed tackles & been turned over 6 times + conceded 6 pens. It’s this kind of one-eyed judgement of player performance from the coach that’s causing problems
Shaun Edwards makes a difference to any team he has worked with. Do England have problems attracting good coaches.
Do Wales considering their 6N position last year?
it's a combination of several factors. Shaun Edwards has a huge influence for sure on the french defence but the coach is Galthie and I don't think you get good results with a flock of turkeys on the pitch, i'm not talking about the English players who showed they were capable of doing great things. Maybe there are missing elements in the formula now but England will have brighter days.
Selection. Pick players on form, from the Premiership. It was mad to pick Saracens players who haven’t played a competitive match in months
England have played 5 games and all appeared to be forgotten after the France victory, but now it's back to the same excuses.
I was saying this at the start of the 6N. Their first competitive match they got spanked by Pirates. An above poster suggested dropping Farrell, I'd agree with him.
And by the Autumn they still wont have played a competitive match!
No disrespect to the Championship.
No disrespect to the Championship.
Unfortunately Clive Woodward who as an expert on Business Management was the only candidate prepared to take on the job going into the Professional Era, negotiated for England players to be contracted.. Many of us no doubt recall with affection amateur days when club teams were mostly English and players were picked on form and potential by selectors. Then the coach helped them to fit together
EJ's hands a little tied on that front.
If the spine of your starting XV find themselves kicking their heels, that's something a national coach can not plan for.
EJ could have used the opportunity for try outs, but loses development time with those he expects to be the core of the next wc squad.
Saracens cheating - the gift that keeps on giving.
If the spine of your starting XV find themselves kicking their heels, that's something a national coach can not plan for.
EJ could have used the opportunity for try outs, but loses development time with those he expects to be the core of the next wc squad.
Saracens cheating - the gift that keeps on giving.
Totally right. Playing for England should be earned in the Premiership performances not on a training ground or weights room.
I would be surprised if there wasn't a bit of friction in the squad over how Saracens have behaved over the years and this is more likely to matter when England are struggling.
I would be surprised if there wasn't a bit of friction in the squad over how Saracens have behaved over the years and this is more likely to matter when England are struggling.
What about starting with the out-of-form, out-of-match-fitness Sarries? Surely Eddie's loyalty to Itoje, Farrell, George et al has cost them big this tournament.
Farrell is deeply out of sorts and Itoje clumsy at best with the discipline. Both great players - in form - but Eddie is imbuing the same sense of entitlement that seemingly ruled out Cipriani.
A missed opportunity to blood the future.
Farrell is deeply out of sorts and Itoje clumsy at best with the discipline. Both great players - in form - but Eddie is imbuing the same sense of entitlement that seemingly ruled out Cipriani.
A missed opportunity to blood the future.
There is a significant difference between having a single winger who hasn’t played much versus the spine of your side (2,4,8,10/12 and MV added later).
It amazes me you can’t see that tbh.
It amazes me you can’t see that tbh.
There is always the exception that proves the rule.
Maitland was poor v Italy on Saturday. Slow and laboured and subbed pretty quickly.
Maitland's one man, he's talking about six England/Saracens players, approximately one third of a team.
Perhaps it's a question of attitude or character then? Or a question of how many under-performers can be absorbed and supported to excellence at the one time?
England are relatively average themselves don’t you think ? So please don’t think that England are or should be any better .
2023 won’t be a disaster. Jones will turn it round for the RWC, I’m sure. But why we have to wait 4 years to be good again is the problem for me.
Jones will be up the road soon and all he’ll leave behind is a vacuum and bad smell. Good riddance Eddie.
How very unnecessarily rude and pointless a comment
Like France, England is a large rugby playing nation with a significant number of very rich professional clubs, an incredible pyramid of junior clubs and a huge player base to pick from. These two countries should win the 6 nations every year. Look at Wales by contrast - small population, 4 financially poor professional teams and a small player base. Yet they punch above their weight most years.
Wales have a similar population to NZ.
Compare the WCs in both trophy rooms
Compare the WCs in both trophy rooms
The best welsh players still come from the English Premiership. Rees-Zammit and Calum Sheedy are the latest of the production line.
Suggest you look at how many foreign born players are in each squad at this years 6N before you drag up the old “look how good we are with such a small population “ cliche. It’s very easy to do but you doubtless won’t like the truth it shows - especially the high number of English players you have. This is 2021 the teams go by the titles of each country but it’s a professional game these days .
France has gone through a number of strange experiments over the last decade or more, moving away from flair and talent to the biggest players they can find. Only recently are they mo ing back to talent, speed of thought and intelligence. Jones doesn't care about those, he just wants players who "win" training, who do as he commands and who never question him.
Because the lads are Proud to pull the jersey on and the Coach doesn't throw out gems like he's " World Class " first of all they've got to prove it
England have been on wrong end of some clearly biased refereeing which has not helped ie the French referee gifting Wales 14 POINTS
Itoje 1 penalty on Saturday
England are in reverse and accelerating . No hope at World cup. Bring in the best Rugby League trainers / coaches and watch the turnaround. Back to the bad old days. where has all the money been spent??
If you want to ask a neutral, the main problem is a 1 dimensional game plan. Any team can prepare for it, and neutralise the threats easily. Start mixing it up.
Like France did?
Yep, every team has a game plan, sometimes our game plan works like a dream, NZ win 2019,
Problem is what happens when game plan A ain't working?
How many times over the years have you watched an NZ side struggle in a close game only to find some magic in the last 10 mins to win?
As individuals and a team, no one can adapt on the fly, change tac mid game and work a way around the opposition.
Problem is what happens when game plan A ain't working?
How many times over the years have you watched an NZ side struggle in a close game only to find some magic in the last 10 mins to win?
As individuals and a team, no one can adapt on the fly, change tac mid game and work a way around the opposition.
I agree although Ireland and Wales play a similar game but this year have played it way better.
Absolutely agree - they're playing to a computer programme with fixed sub-routines that have been totally reverse engineered by all the opposing teams. The format is known inside out. No plan B or C. No instinctive play - where are the play makers, the game changers, the flexible tacticians, the on-field maverick magicians. Guess we should look to the young French team ...
England have been worked out ....SA out gunned us in the RWC final.... Ireland did the same on Saturday.... look at the power and determination of Furlong... he was so up for it.... not doubting England's efforts... but they didn't get close to the power and passion fo Furlong.... We need so many more dimensions than stick it up the jumper rugby.... and Youngs... kicking away possession !!!!
I think the problem is the ability to play heads up rugby is either being coached out of them, or actively discouraged. All the teams at the top of the premiership right now and scoring tries galore, not because they are throwing the ball around willy-nilly, but because the players are given the freedom to use their skill (they are pros for a reason) to play the game in front of them
They need to get some spirit, some of that Celtic spirit the other nations possess, but i feel it just does not exist in English sport. They play like they have earned the right to play before they actually have, couple that with the reluctance to take a chance on young fearless talent, Why is Owen Farrell so safe at number 10, he offers nothing in attack, they have danger out wide but that's it.
What a load of nationalistic bs! You do realise that many of those players played in the RWC final, the youngest team ever to reach the final?
The Wales team that played on Saturday had 1000+ caps and
apart from LRZ not particularly full of young fearless talent!
Where is all that 'celtic spirit' for RWC or for playing NZ? And where was it last year on the 6n and ANC?
The Wales team that played on Saturday had 1000+ caps and
apart from LRZ not particularly full of young fearless talent!
Where is all that 'celtic spirit' for RWC or for playing NZ? And where was it last year on the 6n and ANC?
Touch of the Celtic's, thinking they're better than they are, arrogant and complacent in believing all they need to do to win is simply show up while - and where analogy breaks down a bit - other teams have continued to improve. Same with the cricket team as demontrated with consumate ease by India. Both great to witness.
I see Curry is the latest English sensation to be bigged up by the deluded English media. To compare him to McCaw is not only laughable but an insult to one of the greatest players the game has seen.
Not an insult, Curry is more S Burger type where (if we are making comparisons) Underhill is more likely to be McCaw ish! given the opportunity and caps.
How is that an insult?
Recognising Mccaw is the benchmark and comparing a young 22 year old to him at that age? Curry has been Englands best player since he was 19.
Recognising Mccaw is the benchmark and comparing a young 22 year old to him at that age? Curry has been Englands best player since he was 19.
Curry is one England player completely undeserving of criticism. Should be captain.
Oh dear still harping on about that “World Cup” thing....your living in the past, this is the present. Just move on . The Press are one of England’s biggest problems without doubt !
England have been on wrong end of some clearly biased refereeing which has not helped ie the French referee gifting Wales 14 POINTS
Laughable whinging comment. Take away the 14 points 'gifted to Wales, add on the 3pts for the penalty kick then remove England's Watson's forward pass try and the final score would have been 29 -17 to Wales! BTW Have you seen the video of Farrell's cross field kick for Saracens to Ashton. What goes round comes round! Grow up mate!
Different game when you’re not chasing it. You need to have played to understand that though.
New coach is needed. Eddie's done a good job to be fair but it seems the only way to freshen this team up will be to get someone new in.
Eddie Jones talked about resetting after the World Cup. The English Premiership has some exciting young players that are continually overlooked or mishandled when selected whilst EJ continues to pick the same starting players from the same cosy squad. England have gone backwards in so many ways it’s got to the point I enjoy watching France play more than my home country.
I only had time to watch one match on Saturday, so I watched the thrilling Grand Slam match rather than the drab dead rubber between England and Ireland.
Jones needs to go, but the RFU lacks the gumption and also probably the funds, so England will limp on, occasionally brilliant but more often terrible, until after the next World Cup.
Jones needs to go, but the RFU lacks the gumption and also probably the funds, so England will limp on, occasionally brilliant but more often terrible, until after the next World Cup.
Should of seen the premiership games
Bath 47 Worcester 22
Harlequins 59 Gloucester 24
Exeter 47 Leicester 31
Gonna watch the highlights on Monday ??
Bath 47 Worcester 22
Harlequins 59 Gloucester 24
Exeter 47 Leicester 31
Gonna watch the highlights on Monday ??
Very odd. So you knew beforehand which game to watch and without watching the England game are on here commenting.
Agree Tim, but RFU do have a get out clause as does EJ. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't go. Just depends on if the man they want is available yet..
Only a drab dead rubber if your an Englishman, I didn't find it drab at all.
I am glad I wasn't the only England supporter that chose to watch the Wales v France game instead of England. Not a great place to be...
Jam tomorrow Jones. He has more resources and a bigger talent pool than any of the home nations, but his stubbornness is the biggest barrier to progress.
He loses playing stupid, pedestrian, forward smashing, box kicking, penalty filled games to Scotland and Wales, and gets panned by the press and pundits. He changes tactics and beats France, then reverts to plan A again against Ireland. I genuinely think stubborn Jones did it on purpose to stick two fingers up at everyone. Time has come to say thank you and goodbye.
Playing rugby by numbers is the problem always the same tactics, nobody in the squad plays heads up rugby as EJ doesn't like that style of game
This is the problem distilled in a one sentence.
Very true, but Rugby by Numbers isn't just an England problem, its a game problem, it's just England are filling all the numbers with the same flipping colour.
Like France, England is a large rugby playing nation with a significant number of very rich professional clubs, an incredible pyramid of junior clubs and a huge player base to pick from. These two countries should win the 6 nations every year. Look at Wales by contrast - small population, 4 financially poor professional teams and a small player base. Yet they punch above their weight most years.
Not quite. NZ=4.9 million, Wales =3.1 million. Almost 2 million different
If World Cup ha been introduced earlier as in football, we may have had a couple. Plus half of Wales don't play rugby. You'll only see a smattering of rugby clubs in the North. I'm from Wrexham, biggest town in the North, and we didn't even play rugby in school. Only played in numbers , in the South. Can't really be compared to NZ in regards to participation figures.
Unlike NZ, Football is the number 1 sport in Wales in terms of participants and spectators, so when you factor that in Wales certainly do 'punch above their weight'.
Its not population that counts - Its rugby playing population - France has biggest number of registered players by far - Wales actually has less registered players than Italy and 300k less than England!
6 if the starting line up were sarries, they haven't played this year which has shown. There are also noticeable absentees in Laws, underhill, marler, Knowle, tuilagi etc. This has been a very different year and 6 nations, it'll be better next year
Sorry we have so many more to fill the void but eddie will not use them why?
Every player you mention missing brought some dog to the team.
Its definetly a selection issue, Eddie needs to look for that type of player. Simmonds and Care stand out for me.
Its definetly a selection issue, Eddie needs to look for that type of player. Simmonds and Care stand out for me.
I may be wrong but I can’t see PL leaving what he is doing at Bristol toLikewise Baxter is Exeter through and through.
About time a summer tour was all about the talent and low cap in form players, not the usual suspects. Come on Eddie, give that talent a go.
It will be interesting to see who he selects for the summer tour. EJ previously thought his 1st 15 would be away with The Lions - not any more.
They need to get some spirit, some of that Celtic spirit the other nations possess, but i feel it just does not exist in English sport. They play like they have earned the right to play before they actually have, couple that with the reluctance to take a chance on young fearless talent, Why is Owen Farrell so safe at number 10, he offers nothing in attack, they have danger out wide but that's it.
What a load of nationalistic bs! You do realise that many of those players played in the RWC final, the youngest team ever to reach the final?
The Wales team that played on Saturday had 1000+ caps and
apart from LRZ not particularly full of young fearless talent!
Where is all that 'celtic spirit' for RWC or for playing NZ? And where was it last year on the 6n and ANC?
The Wales team that played on Saturday had 1000+ caps and
apart from LRZ not particularly full of young fearless talent!
Where is all that 'celtic spirit' for RWC or for playing NZ? And where was it last year on the 6n and ANC?
Not playing their best players! Marcus Smith is the best 10 in England but to fit Farrell in Jones plays the 12, 13 and 15 out of position. Time to plan for next World Cup. Robson, Smith, making Dombrandt Willis ( when he is back) should be the base.
When Ford lost form after leaving Barh Farrell was a better fly half. But Farrell was limited so when Ford came back to form he offered more. But Farrell has never been the second best centre in England. Nothing like. And he's captain because he's not a captain, just a great follower of orders.
I probably prefer Harry Randall to Dan Robson, nearly 7 years younger too.
Marcus Smith is a great option and I wish he was picked but how does Farrell playing at 12 stop that happening? Also how does Farrell playing at 12 impact the selection at FB?
Ford is the name you are looking for. He's the reason Smith isn't at 10 and Farrell needs to be at 12.
Ford is the name you are looking for. He's the reason Smith isn't at 10 and Farrell needs to be at 12.
Other nations play with a burning passion that England lack. Too one dimensional and a lack of leadership both on and off the field. Jones has to go and take with him his favoured players. Most of the Saracens players who let down their club, have also let down their country.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about! The players didn't let down the club you tool!
Removed
That's v unfair re the Saracens players - blame the club heirarchy for the financial errors for sure (& let's get every prem clubs acts out for full scrutiny btw - v unlikely they were the only transgressors!) Saracens players worked incredibly hard to develop & with much success on the field over several yrs, no club-letdown there! Do agree Eng relied too much on status quo too many unfit players
Feels very familiar. It's a loss of form with poor selection. Australia used to do this cycle between world cups and always found form.
Keep the faith you don't become a bad team over night.
Keep the faith you don't become a bad team over night.
I'm sorry, but the biggest problem right now surely has to be the coach? He's the one who picks the side & the tactics. Every fan has their own opinion on who should or should not be playing & rarely do we agree much! But Jones seems extraordinarily reluctant to change things when they aren't working. The buck stops with him...
I don't know if Jones is the best man for the job or not.Since he got England to the World Cup final 18 months ago he must have something.Is there anything that might have hampered efforts this year ? Maybe the destruction of Saracens whose players at the heart of the English team have been left without quality rugby games and training rigor might in truth be the real factor for the poor form.
Like France, England is a large rugby playing nation with a significant number of very rich professional clubs, an incredible pyramid of junior clubs and a huge player base to pick from. These two countries should win the 6 nations every year. Look at Wales by contrast - small population, 4 financially poor professional teams and a small player base. Yet they punch above their weight most years.
That does suggest that England are poor at identify talent .... you can add Cameron Redpath to that.
However, bear in mind that if you live in England and want to make it a career - then the only structured route is through the Academy system - and during that period you are only eligible for England.
LRZ seems to be an exception as he was born in Wales but went to Hartpury college.
However, bear in mind that if you live in England and want to make it a career - then the only structured route is through the Academy system - and during that period you are only eligible for England.
LRZ seems to be an exception as he was born in Wales but went to Hartpury college.
Sheedy, LRZ and Botham were all born in Wales but schooling meant they were in England.
Many families from Wales and Scotland had little choice but to move to England to find work in the 80/90/00 - it was an economic reality - so the children and heading towards the grandchildren of those generations are more than likely to be born in England - or in the case of Redpath - France.
Many families from Wales and Scotland had little choice but to move to England to find work in the 80/90/00 - it was an economic reality - so the children and heading towards the grandchildren of those generations are more than likely to be born in England - or in the case of Redpath - France.
First mistake they made was missing out on Shaun Edwards as defence coach, France grabbed him and he has worked wonders, same as he did with Wales. Secondly he refuses to axe out of form players, so those players have no incentive to put it right. Next far too many good players don't get a chance, Sam Simmonds, European POTY and you don't make the squad? Finally tactics, kick, kick, kick, boring.
Said that repeatedly, pay him anything (edwards)
Every team he touches turns to gold
Every team he touches turns to gold
Shaun Edwards absolutely should be the next England head coach,but it ain't going to happen.
To get Edwards you will have to meet his demands which are always one sided. No one lost him he walked away. The whole Eng thing is a bloody mystery.
How is it you just assume Edward's will coach you?he won't until the RFU opolige to him and gatland
As for Jones not dropping out of form players, you only need to look across his career and realise he has history of sticking with favourites (look no further than George Gregan with the Wallabies and ACT Brumbies),
Not sure Jones and Edwards could or would ever work together ...
Sam Simmons, can't work that one out. He should be nailed on.
The problem is Eddie......
....how on earth can he say there’s no obvious replacement for Billy ?
....a lack of talent coming through ?
.....Eddie is destroying England from the inside
....how on earth can he say there’s no obvious replacement for Billy ?
....a lack of talent coming through ?
.....Eddie is destroying England from the inside
I actually think that is his plan.
Why would he want England to succeed, it's against his DNA.
Why would he want England to succeed, it's against his DNA.
Exactly right look at every coaching role he has had in his career 18 months of changing everything and highly intensive which leads too some improvements then a huge drop off in intensity and performances will continue downhill. He’s the magath of rugby coaching
Couldn't agree more with this. EJ unable or unwilling to look beyond what had worked for him in the past. Out of form players (by their own admission) being asked to play at 100pc of their best form just cannot happen and without 100pc performances from half the squad, we aren't good enough to beat the best.
Other nations play with a burning passion that England lack. Too one dimensional and a lack of leadership both on and off the field. Jones has to go and take with him his favoured players. Most of the Saracens players who let down their club, have also let down their country.
I think England’s problem lies with the Ford/Farrell combo. I think you need a change from both. You definitely missed Underhill. Looking at the starting 15 - Itoje & Curry are your only real Lions contenders at the moment. England may need to pick some more new faces!
“We finished the tournament better than we started “ Thanks for that summing up Jones . I would have summed it up somewhat differently - “ we were abysmal against poor to average Scotland , Ireland and Wales teams , average performance against a truly abysmal Italy and at times played reasonably against a potentially great French team” .
The irony. The ignorance here is the assumption that the Irish, Scottish and Welsh teams are ‘poor to average’ and to lose to them England must be abysmal. The reality is there is not much between any of these good teams.
They need to get some spirit, some of that Celtic spirit the other nations possess, but i feel it just does not exist in English sport. They play like they have earned the right to play before they actually have, couple that with the reluctance to take a chance on young fearless talent, Why is Owen Farrell so safe at number 10, he offers nothing in attack, they have danger out wide but that's it.
Simple if you pick unfit players whose team is in the championship you will get slaughtered at international level
Sarcens vs Cornish Pirates QED well said!
Feels very familiar. It's a loss of form with poor selection. Australia used to do this cycle between world cups and always found form.
Keep the faith you don't become a bad team over night.
Keep the faith you don't become a bad team over night.
Touch of the Celtic's, thinking they're better than they are, arrogant and complacent in believing all they need to do to win is simply show up while - and where analogy breaks down a bit - other teams have continued to improve. Same with the cricket team as demontrated with consumate ease by India. Both great to witness.
2. Get Shaun Edwards as defense coach