University to pay out £5k for 'less valuable' experience
02/03/2021
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news
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education
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Details of student complaints about Covid's impact are released - including one award of £5,000.
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NotLegalTender
02/03/2021 10:16:50
10
3
bbc
And so the floodgates open...
Government(s) have commercialised the English HE education system. Universities are left to earn their incomes and that has negative implications at many levels.
good old Tony insisting 50% of population need to go to university
Next PPI type scandal and ambulance chasers coming your way in 3 .... 2 .... 1 .....
That is an eventuality that would please a lot of people in or close to this government.
I don't believe its all that complicated. You are essentially buying a product and the vendor has failed to deliver. A refund should certainly be forthcoming as with any other business that is selling something.
Is the refund going to come from the government/the rest of society who have imposed the rules that have lead to an inferior product?
Who says the "vendor" has failed to deliver? Many university lecturers have worked hard to deliver and deliver well!
The vendor has delivered, but in an online form. This has been forced upon universities, and pretty much every other 'vendor' across the world because of this pandemic. But students are still learning and getting degrees. What they are missing out on is the social side of things.
Good! No course is worth what they pay, every student (or rather whoever paid) should get at least half back, Thatcher and her ilk making education a business is to blame for this, education is a right, not so some rich people can become even richer, sickening.
I think you have a distortion of facts.
Tony Blair in his infinite wisdom decided 50% should go to university.
The old funding model was no longer sustainable as the typically much higher earnings of graduates paid for the old system. Now a degree is a base level.
Tony Blair introduced fees and increased them to 3k per year.
Tony Blair in his infinite wisdom decided 50% should go to university.
The old funding model was no longer sustainable as the typically much higher earnings of graduates paid for the old system. Now a degree is a base level.
Tony Blair introduced fees and increased them to 3k per year.
It was Bliar and Brown that introduced tuition fees payable by students and not taxpayers
The students didn't get what they'd paid for so should get a refund. But the universities have to obey the laws set by the government. So the government that dictated the rules should pay the refunds, not the Unis.
So 'we', the public, should pay for a select number to go to university?
Universities make millions in profits, why should I as a taxpayer foot the bill? The gov has no money, it is OUR money they have.
As any part of a student loan not paid off by the due date is cancelled and the amount owed to the loanee (commercial company) is passed to the underwriter (the government) for payment it seems like we the tax payer need to ensure this system is good value for money - either if you went onto HE or not.
Unis are a law unto themselves these days. They should be teaching about freedom of speech and difference of views yet they dont. They would rather push their left wing agendas then go cap in hand to the government when they need extra funds to pay for their day trips to go toppling statues.
Its a scandal that Universities took full charges of students when they knew it would nothing like the price they paid.
I wonder what you think "the price they paid" is? Education is not like PPE, you cannot ask your mates to find factories churning out batches of low-quality products, and whack on whatever profit margin you think you can get away with. Universities have fixed costs.
How is a scandal charging the same whilst incurring higher costs?
Don't go to university during a pandemic and expect your money's worth. Should've waited a year and had a much better experience, socially and academically, post pandemic.
I imagine a lot of people would be planning this, resulting in a bumper year for people applying, reducing the chances of getting a place at Uni.
Yes, great idea. Suspend the education of the next batch of doctors, nurses and operating department practitioners.
That'll improve the country.........not.
That'll improve the country.........not.
Wow - blame the students for lack of foresight and clairvoyance.
What about the people who were at university when the pandemic hit?
The students didn't get what they'd paid for so should get a refund. But the universities have to obey the laws set by the government. So the government that dictated the rules should pay the refunds, not the Unis.
No, previously higher earning graduates would pay their university tuition back in higher warnings and therefore tax.
It's not different now, with a graduate tax disguised as a loan. Typically in demand professions have a chance of paying large chunks of this back, while other students don't start to earn enough to pay it back.
It's not different now, with a graduate tax disguised as a loan. Typically in demand professions have a chance of paying large chunks of this back, while other students don't start to earn enough to pay it back.
If you, "the public", choose not to fund certain courses, you, "the public", will have to get a better first aid book as opposed to expect doctors and nurses to learn how to save your life....
That's how it used to be. Top 5% of young people went to uni without paying fees, some of the poorest even got a few grand to live off called a maintenance grant. Meddling politicians changed a working system to fiddle the unemployment figures to be lower.
Yes. After all, we pay for a select few to go to prison, have their children taken away by social services, call an ambulance etc. It's called society. Graduates then go onto pay higher taxes as a result of earning more.
Yes but remember you should be ashamed of your privilege for doing so!
Good! No course is worth what they pay, every student (or rather whoever paid) should get at least half back, Thatcher and her ilk making education a business is to blame for this, education is a right, not so some rich people can become even richer, sickening.
I think you have a distortion of facts.
Tony Blair in his infinite wisdom decided 50% should go to university.
The old funding model was no longer sustainable as the typically much higher earnings of graduates paid for the old system. Now a degree is a base level.
Tony Blair introduced fees and increased them to 3k per year.
Tony Blair in his infinite wisdom decided 50% should go to university.
The old funding model was no longer sustainable as the typically much higher earnings of graduates paid for the old system. Now a degree is a base level.
Tony Blair introduced fees and increased them to 3k per year.
Yes you are probably right, one awful MP tends to merge into another, I knew it was a Tory (or Tory wannabe), who did it. But I am pretty sure it was the witch who got the ball rolling, I may be wrong though.
Any modern country should be promoting enhanced education for young people. For far too long, university was the domain of the middle class. All Tony Blair did was try to stop that becoming the future. As a graduate health professional from a working class background, I am pleased some people think my academic ability should not have been squashed due to my family background.
Good! No course is worth what they pay, every student (or rather whoever paid) should get at least half back, Thatcher and her ilk making education a business is to blame for this, education is a right, not so some rich people can become even richer, sickening.
I don't believe its all that complicated. You are essentially buying a product and the vendor has failed to deliver. A refund should certainly be forthcoming as with any other business that is selling something.
Should come out of the University Chancellors pay.. .they probably wouldn't notice.
That is not how business works.
..and successive Conservative governments ensuring the situation worsened with no viable alternatives.
The reality is, 50% of them still don't though. What issue do you have with people who are intelligent enough to do a degree course? Do you want a nation of shopkeepers and plumbers?
It wasn't 50% going to university. It was 50% going into higher education, that could mean university, or a Higher National Diploma, or a degree apprenticeship...
So 'we', the public, should pay for a select number to go to university?
No, previously higher earning graduates would pay their university tuition back in higher warnings and therefore tax.
It's not different now, with a graduate tax disguised as a loan. Typically in demand professions have a chance of paying large chunks of this back, while other students don't start to earn enough to pay it back.
It's not different now, with a graduate tax disguised as a loan. Typically in demand professions have a chance of paying large chunks of this back, while other students don't start to earn enough to pay it back.
so retrospectively punish or change the rules on a financial product taken out many years ago?
Before some people start belittling young people for not fighting in a world war (by people who also didn't fight in any war) do pause and ask yourself if you'd be happy paying £9k a term, plus accommodation rent, plus course materials etc as a time when its hard to get work in so many areas.
This seems like a fair judgment.
This seems like a fair judgment.
Depends entirely on the degree. If it adds more value than I'm paying, I'd take the hit in most areas (e.g. fees). Frankly, I can't think of any of my course that really required attendance in person. Yes, I couldn't have done the lab work, but I could have covered the experiments (e.g. measuring the speed of light) at a theoretical level and gained 99% of what I did from doing the experiment.
The students didn't get what they'd paid for so should get a refund. But the universities have to obey the laws set by the government. So the government that dictated the rules should pay the refunds, not the Unis.
I think you have a distortion of facts.
Tony Blair in his infinite wisdom decided 50% should go to university.
The old funding model was no longer sustainable as the typically much higher earnings of graduates paid for the old system. Now a degree is a base level.
Tony Blair introduced fees and increased them to 3k per year.
Tony Blair in his infinite wisdom decided 50% should go to university.
The old funding model was no longer sustainable as the typically much higher earnings of graduates paid for the old system. Now a degree is a base level.
Tony Blair introduced fees and increased them to 3k per year.
??????? The vast majority of university lecturers have been working like mad to make the student experience as good as possible
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
I agree completely. However, there has also been a noticeable drop-off in some areas with interaction, even with the tools being there to enable it. Discussion groups, feedback on papers, and so forth (of course everyone's experience will differ) but if the full price in a bau year is £10k (for example), and the service isn't there, a refund should be made.
So lecturers have had to do a proper day's work for once in their lives.
I'm sure they have, but the question us, why weren't they before. Always find academics need to embrace tech more.
Absolutely, as a student I really appreciate what the lecturers have done. Yet despite all of that effort I bet every one of those lecturers would admit that the courses HAVEN'T been up to the same standard as they normally are, at least in my course which involves numerous practical's which have had to be postponed/binned.
It's possible to commend lecturers and still think students should get £
It's possible to commend lecturers and still think students should get £
When you say lecturers have been working extremely hard I can only presume you mean in the pursuit of removing historical statues, trying to rewrite our history or teaching far left principles.
I have zero sympathy for these extreme left wing lecturers.
I have zero sympathy for these extreme left wing lecturers.
UK universities are also losing overseas students (over our poor virus handling), who pay higher fees to subsidize home students. Universities are a vital part of UK, we need to support and protect the sector, not bankrupt them when they have not done anything wrong.
There are stacks of universities churning out low quality product.
There are 20-30 universities that provide genuinely good education and at the end, a certificate that will launch a career. The rest are money making conveyor belts with mediocre teaching leading to a certificate that genuine graduate employers will turn their nose up at.
Thank Blair and his '50% to uni' policy for that.
There are 20-30 universities that provide genuinely good education and at the end, a certificate that will launch a career. The rest are money making conveyor belts with mediocre teaching leading to a certificate that genuine graduate employers will turn their nose up at.
Thank Blair and his '50% to uni' policy for that.
Is the refund going to come from the government/the rest of society who have imposed the rules that have lead to an inferior product?
No, previously higher earning graduates would pay their university tuition back in higher warnings and therefore tax.
It's not different now, with a graduate tax disguised as a loan. Typically in demand professions have a chance of paying large chunks of this back, while other students don't start to earn enough to pay it back.
It's not different now, with a graduate tax disguised as a loan. Typically in demand professions have a chance of paying large chunks of this back, while other students don't start to earn enough to pay it back.
Next PPI type scandal and ambulance chasers coming your way in 3 .... 2 .... 1 .....
So 'we', the public, should pay for a select number to go to university?
We have no objection to paying for useful degrees for people who provide quality services for us. However, we see no reason to pay for Mickey Mouse degrees for low quality students. Before Covid 24% of baristas for a well known chain had degrees which we paid for. A waste of our money and their time sending them to University.
Before some people start belittling young people for not fighting in a world war (by people who also didn't fight in any war) do pause and ask yourself if you'd be happy paying £9k a term, plus accommodation rent, plus course materials etc as a time when its hard to get work in so many areas.
This seems like a fair judgment.
This seems like a fair judgment.
All students should have a refund......betcha Vice Chancellors have received their same vastly inflated salaries during all of this....
And where does that money come from? The highest cost of any organisation is usually the staff. They still need paying. As the poster "Imperator" said, they're still working their socks off.
So 'we', the public, should pay for a select number to go to university?
The truth is that the vast majority of students have been robbed blind. The covid risk to them is negligible, and for most university staff it is tiny.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
"The Covid risk to them is negligible and for most university staff it is tiny"
You can keep your No ifs, no buts, no maybes, we had student campuses lockdown due to outbreaks and whilst you may declare everything is grand with no virology or epidemiology qualifications to your name, the simple fact that it increased the spread was why experts chose to close them.
You are wrong.
You can keep your No ifs, no buts, no maybes, we had student campuses lockdown due to outbreaks and whilst you may declare everything is grand with no virology or epidemiology qualifications to your name, the simple fact that it increased the spread was why experts chose to close them.
You are wrong.
Which would all make sense... if there weren't students with underlying health conditions and if students in general weren't carrying out activities that act as superspreading events, before sharing the contagion from those events with those of different age groups.
Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
Numerous unemployed and shortages thanks to Thatcher? :)
Numerous unemployed and shortages thanks to Thatcher? :)
I don't believe its all that complicated. You are essentially buying a product and the vendor has failed to deliver. A refund should certainly be forthcoming as with any other business that is selling something.
The article.
It was Bliar and Brown that introduced tuition fees payable by students and not taxpayers
Blair also axed maintenance grants for students from low-income families at the same time as introducing tuition fees. A double-whammy.
I'm a university lecturer. Lockdown has crippling impact on workload. Lectures & seminars now take much longer and are emotionally exhausting, trying to remain energetic & positive while talking to a machine. Working from home has massively increased admin. Little tasks that used to take 10 minutes now require days of back/forth emailing, constant meetings, emails 24/7. Totally exhausted.
You need to work smarter and embrace technology. Working from home should be easier. Create templates, regular meetings as much as possible. I run up to 37 meetings a week. The main issue is lack of human contact and bring able to write and draw on a wipeboard. Agreed running alot of lectures on calls is tiring, but surely so is face to face.
I no longer teach at uni, but totally agree that the actual burden on teaching staff is going to be increased. Not only will staff have to rework all teaching materials for online learning, but the effort getting students to engage is exhausting enough when in a face to face environment. However, no one seems to think of this when looking at refunds.
to Imperator. My son also is a university lecturer and would agree with your comment 100%, if he had the time to answer it! He, too, is totally exhausted, both physically and mentally. I applaud the efforts of the dedicated lecturers who are doing their utmost to give the best teaching experience they can to students.
It must be a right drag when it stops you pushing your far left agendas on students. Don't worry I'm sure your summer will be filled with statue toppling and virtue signalling
Removed
The students are very worried, nervous, and anxious (perfectly understandable). We want them to do well and are trying our best to give them a proper university experience. This is already emotionally and mentally exhausting, spending weekdays in back to back classes and meetings with worried students, and evenings and weekends answering emails
Meanwhile we have management breathing down our necks demanding that we produce materials and teaching of better quality than face to face, we are under perpetual surveillance through student satisfaction surveys, and our trade union does nothing because they are too busy crying over Corbyn.
Absolutely, the students are getting a bad deal. But so are the staff.
Absolutely, the students are getting a bad deal. But so are the staff.
Sitting in your own home teaching/instructing adults
Send emails from a computer in your own home rather than one in an office
Emotionally exhausting, really
Send emails from a computer in your own home rather than one in an office
Emotionally exhausting, really
And that is something that is not being recognised. This has been so hard for almost a year now. We were "allowed" to take an extra 5 days annual leave over into this year as we did not get a break in the summer due to spending the whole time working out how to convert face to face teaching to online teaching. Many people assume we do nothing during the summer. This is NOT the case, esp last year.
good old Tony insisting 50% of population need to go to university
Quite the opposite. Tony Blair was the architect
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/university-target-50-tony-blair-gavin-williamson-a9610556.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/university-target-50-tony-blair-gavin-williamson-a9610556.html
Is the refund going to come from the government/the rest of society who have imposed the rules that have lead to an inferior product?
The truth is that the vast majority of students have been robbed blind. The covid risk to them is negligible, and for most university staff it is tiny.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
My education was free (with a grant and travel paid), but I'd still have been truly devastated if what has been done to these young people had been done to me. To be honest, at that age I might well have needed some serious psychiatric help, if this had been done to me.
so retrospectively punish or change the rules on a financial product taken out many years ago?
I think you have a distortion of facts.
Tony Blair in his infinite wisdom decided 50% should go to university.
The old funding model was no longer sustainable as the typically much higher earnings of graduates paid for the old system. Now a degree is a base level.
Tony Blair introduced fees and increased them to 3k per year.
Tony Blair in his infinite wisdom decided 50% should go to university.
The old funding model was no longer sustainable as the typically much higher earnings of graduates paid for the old system. Now a degree is a base level.
Tony Blair introduced fees and increased them to 3k per year.
Any modern country should be promoting enhanced education for young people. For far too long, university was the domain of the middle class. All Tony Blair did was try to stop that becoming the future. As a graduate health professional from a working class background, I am pleased some people think my academic ability should not have been squashed due to my family background.
The students didn't get what they'd paid for so should get a refund. But the universities have to obey the laws set by the government. So the government that dictated the rules should pay the refunds, not the Unis.
As any part of a student loan not paid off by the due date is cancelled and the amount owed to the loanee (commercial company) is passed to the underwriter (the government) for payment it seems like we the tax payer need to ensure this system is good value for money - either if you went onto HE or not.
I don't believe its all that complicated. You are essentially buying a product and the vendor has failed to deliver. A refund should certainly be forthcoming as with any other business that is selling something.
As a father of two that are home schooling I can tell you now that it is no substitute for face to face learning. Even the best lecturers or teachers can't make up for the lack of idea sharing and immediacy. As for the social side, a large part of the payment made by students is to rent rooms and halls. Which, no matter whose fault it was, haven't been needed.
It was the universites that decided to monetise education so if they take the money but don't provide what they have promised then this is reasonable.
About time. Why should anyone pay full whack for medical training when the "training" part of the course becomes undeliverable. OK its not the uni's fault it's Covid, but it's not the student's fault that they can't or won't access training either. Simples then - don't charge for it, and students aren't obliged to pay. You wouldn't pay for a car with two wheels on the grounds "it's still a car".
good old Tony insisting 50% of population need to go to university
I would prefer to invest in decently prepared plumbers etc who provide value and do necessary jobs than the poor quality "graduates" who struggle to find jobs as baristas
I would be interested to see you definition of intelligence, I know 2 plumbers who make in excess of 70k a year, whilst working in the job they manage there own accounts and marketing as well and teach apprentices, neither have a university degree, are they unintelligent by your standards?
I heard of a university student who averaged over 80% in written assignments. They failed their exam which was another written assignment, so why if they averaged over 80% did they fail the exam. I think that was a case for money back and an investigation into the institution.
Maybe the exam controlled the conditions under which they were writing better. Who knows? Maybe the person doesn't perform well in exam conditions? Maybe a different person marked the exam? Maybe the exam was better scrutinised/moderated? You yourself note that the person averaged over 80%. But perhaps that average included the odd assignment that got 60, say.
A guy I studied with was in a similar situation. Aced every essay, failed the exam outright. He was livid. When he explained how he'd answered the exam questions it became very clear that he'd simply not answered the questions that were there. They sounded like brilliant answers but they weren't answering the questions that were set. It's the most basic rule of an exam - answer the darn question!
The truth is that the vast majority of students have been robbed blind. The covid risk to them is negligible, and for most university staff it is tiny.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
"The Covid risk to them is negligible and for most university staff it is tiny"
You can keep your No ifs, no buts, no maybes, we had student campuses lockdown due to outbreaks and whilst you may declare everything is grand with no virology or epidemiology qualifications to your name, the simple fact that it increased the spread was why experts chose to close them.
You are wrong.
You can keep your No ifs, no buts, no maybes, we had student campuses lockdown due to outbreaks and whilst you may declare everything is grand with no virology or epidemiology qualifications to your name, the simple fact that it increased the spread was why experts chose to close them.
You are wrong.
"You are wrong."
Or maybe I'm just not totally selfish! Even at 63, I'm not in the least bit frightened by this virus. I want to see young people have the same educational opportunities that I was given. I want them to enjoy the rich kind of student life I enjoyed.
I'm not prepared to steal this from them just to very slightly reduce my chance of dying. It's about being a decent human being.
Or maybe I'm just not totally selfish! Even at 63, I'm not in the least bit frightened by this virus. I want to see young people have the same educational opportunities that I was given. I want them to enjoy the rich kind of student life I enjoyed.
I'm not prepared to steal this from them just to very slightly reduce my chance of dying. It's about being a decent human being.
Any modern country should be promoting enhanced education for young people. For far too long, university was the domain of the middle class. All Tony Blair did was try to stop that becoming the future. As a graduate health professional from a working class background, I am pleased some people think my academic ability should not have been squashed due to my family background.
"A university has been ordered to pay a student £5,000 in compensation for lost teaching time during England's first lockdown"
?? I wonder which university that was?
?? It was a priority in many universities to ensure that teaching time continued at the same rate during lockdown
?? Not all universities are the same!
?? Lecturers have also helped lots of students with mental health issues
?? I wonder which university that was?
?? It was a priority in many universities to ensure that teaching time continued at the same rate during lockdown
?? Not all universities are the same!
?? Lecturers have also helped lots of students with mental health issues
I wonder what you think "the price they paid" is? Education is not like PPE, you cannot ask your mates to find factories churning out batches of low-quality products, and whack on whatever profit margin you think you can get away with. Universities have fixed costs.
There are stacks of universities churning out low quality product.
There are 20-30 universities that provide genuinely good education and at the end, a certificate that will launch a career. The rest are money making conveyor belts with mediocre teaching leading to a certificate that genuine graduate employers will turn their nose up at.
Thank Blair and his '50% to uni' policy for that.
There are 20-30 universities that provide genuinely good education and at the end, a certificate that will launch a career. The rest are money making conveyor belts with mediocre teaching leading to a certificate that genuine graduate employers will turn their nose up at.
Thank Blair and his '50% to uni' policy for that.
Nobody is going to get their money back.
Universities have far far bigger things to worry about than teaching - what about safe spaces, personal pronouns and gender fluidity?
Universities have far far bigger things to worry about than teaching - what about safe spaces, personal pronouns and gender fluidity?
Don't forget electing a middle class idiot to the student union who thinks all WW1 remembrance statues and plagues should be erased from memory, as she did not have a bloody clue about our history.
When I was at uni, talk of gender fluidity would normally result in someone looking for a mop and bucket, or Kleenex at least.
I heard of a university student who averaged over 80% in written assignments. They failed their exam which was another written assignment, so why if they averaged over 80% did they fail the exam. I think that was a case for money back and an investigation into the institution.
Maybe the exam controlled the conditions under which they were writing better. Who knows? Maybe the person doesn't perform well in exam conditions? Maybe a different person marked the exam? Maybe the exam was better scrutinised/moderated? You yourself note that the person averaged over 80%. But perhaps that average included the odd assignment that got 60, say.
To me, this example is less of an issue than the degrees that would never be worth anything under any circumstances, but still cost nearly (or actually) 9k per year. They are the rule rather than the exception.
Dear UK univ students (AND international students if you risk yourself to catch the UK variants after being charged three times more than locals)
It is disgraceful and totally unacceptable not to refund part of your tuition fee by the shameless UK universities with literally studying your courses (without essential practices) zooming at home and most of you paid accommodations without being used
It is disgraceful and totally unacceptable not to refund part of your tuition fee by the shameless UK universities with literally studying your courses (without essential practices) zooming at home and most of you paid accommodations without being used
It's business as usual - everyone wants someone to blame for their predicament and to foot the bill.
It is just a case of where the buck stops - the student, the university, the sudent loans fund, the taxpayer.
It is just a case of where the buck stops - the student, the university, the sudent loans fund, the taxpayer.
The truth is that the vast majority of students have been robbed blind. The covid risk to them is negligible, and for most university staff it is tiny.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
The vendor has delivered, but in an online form. This has been forced upon universities, and pretty much every other 'vendor' across the world because of this pandemic. But students are still learning and getting degrees. What they are missing out on is the social side of things.
As a father of two that are home schooling I can tell you now that it is no substitute for face to face learning. Even the best lecturers or teachers can't make up for the lack of idea sharing and immediacy. As for the social side, a large part of the payment made by students is to rent rooms and halls. Which, no matter whose fault it was, haven't been needed.
??????? The vast majority of university lecturers have been working like mad to make the student experience as good as possible
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
I agree completely. However, there has also been a noticeable drop-off in some areas with interaction, even with the tools being there to enable it. Discussion groups, feedback on papers, and so forth (of course everyone's experience will differ) but if the full price in a bau year is £10k (for example), and the service isn't there, a refund should be made.
" there has also been a noticeable drop-off in some areas with interaction"
It's a 2 way street. A lot of students have seen the pandemic as an excuse to take a holiday, and then blame the university.
Also, a lot of students have suffered huge mental health problems.
Either way, it's not the fault of the lecturer or a reflection of the quality of their work.
It's a 2 way street. A lot of students have seen the pandemic as an excuse to take a holiday, and then blame the university.
Also, a lot of students have suffered huge mental health problems.
Either way, it's not the fault of the lecturer or a reflection of the quality of their work.
I'm a university lecturer. Lockdown has crippling impact on workload. Lectures & seminars now take much longer and are emotionally exhausting, trying to remain energetic & positive while talking to a machine. Working from home has massively increased admin. Little tasks that used to take 10 minutes now require days of back/forth emailing, constant meetings, emails 24/7. Totally exhausted.
You need to work smarter and embrace technology. Working from home should be easier. Create templates, regular meetings as much as possible. I run up to 37 meetings a week. The main issue is lack of human contact and bring able to write and draw on a wipeboard. Agreed running alot of lectures on calls is tiring, but surely so is face to face.
37 meetings? A meeting is not the same as trying to teach students when we would normally be teaching them face to face. I think you have no idea what you are talking about. Yes face to face can be tiring. It is nothing when compared to the stress and extra workload this way of doing our jobs demands.
The truth is that the vast majority of students have been robbed blind. The covid risk to them is negligible, and for most university staff it is tiny.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
These young people have been sold down the river by their colleges and a selfish society.
No ifs, no buts, no maybes. All aspects of university life should have continued as normal. Students have a right to enjoy what WE enjoyed at their age.
"thanks to Thatcher" The 1960's called, they said they want they're politics back.
Thatcher was just paying off the IMF bailout loan (largest in history) that many countries picked up in the 1970s due to fashion of experimenting with socialism in the preceding years. Other smaller economies are still destroyed today because they still have that original loan and cant even pay the interest now.
Thatcher was just paying off the IMF bailout loan (largest in history) that many countries picked up in the 1970s due to fashion of experimenting with socialism in the preceding years. Other smaller economies are still destroyed today because they still have that original loan and cant even pay the interest now.
We have no objection to paying for useful degrees for people who provide quality services for us. However, we see no reason to pay for Mickey Mouse degrees for low quality students. Before Covid 24% of baristas for a well known chain had degrees which we paid for. A waste of our money and their time sending them to University.
There would seem to be a lot of circumstances that would warrant a full or partial refund. However, the reality is that unis will not have insured themselves against this, and would collapse if they paid. Hence no one will make them pay.
Something of a dangerous precedent methinks - refunding monies paid to a supplier who then underperforms, arguably through no fault of their own. I wonder where that leaves such august institutions of fairness and humanity as utility companies and local and national governments?
Meanwhile, let's hope that more students get at least part of their accomodation and education fees refunded.
Meanwhile, let's hope that more students get at least part of their accomodation and education fees refunded.
The article.
I heard of a university student who averaged over 80% in written assignments. They failed their exam which was another written assignment, so why if they averaged over 80% did they fail the exam. I think that was a case for money back and an investigation into the institution.
Why is this front page news?
Can we please remember that UK universities were instrumental in developing vaccine responses to COVID-19 - we should support and be proud of our world-class higher educations system, not bashing it because one student got a complaint upheld. Particularly around things like fees which are a result of government intent to commercialise the HE market in this country,.
Can we please remember that UK universities were instrumental in developing vaccine responses to COVID-19 - we should support and be proud of our world-class higher educations system, not bashing it because one student got a complaint upheld. Particularly around things like fees which are a result of government intent to commercialise the HE market in this country,.
The Tories have been instrumental in making the rich even richer and the poor even poorer, but it does not mean we should congratulate them, your argument makes no sense at all.
Before some people start belittling young people for not fighting in a world war (by people who also didn't fight in any war) do pause and ask yourself if you'd be happy paying £9k a term, plus accommodation rent, plus course materials etc as a time when its hard to get work in so many areas.
This seems like a fair judgment.
This seems like a fair judgment.
Depends entirely on the degree. If it adds more value than I'm paying, I'd take the hit in most areas (e.g. fees). Frankly, I can't think of any of my course that really required attendance in person. Yes, I couldn't have done the lab work, but I could have covered the experiments (e.g. measuring the speed of light) at a theoretical level and gained 99% of what I did from doing the experiment.
You obviously don't have a job now in any practical scientific area. Really skilled experimental scientists need a lot of practical experience in a lab just in order to know how to run an experiment properly and be able to reproduce the results accurately. Probably takes around 20 years full time work to be a really proficient experimental physicist.
So 'we', the public, should pay for a select number to go to university?
I'm a university lecturer. Lockdown has crippling impact on workload. Lectures & seminars now take much longer and are emotionally exhausting, trying to remain energetic & positive while talking to a machine. Working from home has massively increased admin. Little tasks that used to take 10 minutes now require days of back/forth emailing, constant meetings, emails 24/7. Totally exhausted.
I no longer teach at uni, but totally agree that the actual burden on teaching staff is going to be increased. Not only will staff have to rework all teaching materials for online learning, but the effort getting students to engage is exhausting enough when in a face to face environment. However, no one seems to think of this when looking at refunds.
??????? The vast majority of university lecturers have been working like mad to make the student experience as good as possible
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
Universities are working harder and still delivering a university education, so why should they reduce fees? I've had to queue outside supermarkets only to find they had no toilet roll, so I guess I should expect lower prices as my shopping experience wasn't up to par.
Yet again Scotland shows up little enland by doing the right thing by it`s next generation, free uni education. Shame on you england
Paid for by subsidies from the English Taxpayer
As a law grad myself, I disagree with you here. Why should the tax-payer pay for an individual to gain the upper hand? Universities are still private businesses, you still need to pay for your course with NO loans available for Open Uni, and the multitude of online sites. Student loans are graduate taxes - and I shall have paid mine off by October this year - yay!
Perhaps your wonderful Scottish ejucashun didn't teach you where to put the apostrophe in its. Shoulda tried harder at skool My Love. FYI there is no apostrophe in your sentence. You're welcome.
And that attitude is why the Scots will gain independence just as soon as the English can vote as well.
You are right, but why does Scotland get a capital letter, but England does not?
Silly comment, for a start Scotland's "free uni education" is paid for by the UK tax payer (no such thing as "free" BTW) and the system in Scotland is actually making university places less available to poorer kids. Scotland (well, the SNP, it's unfair to blame all the Scots) have been racking up massive debts for years knowing that the UK government pick up the tab.
Why should it be free? After the age of 18 education is voluntary so why should the tax payers who does not go to university subsidise those at do? Shame on you Scotland.
Universities are working harder and still delivering a university education, so why should they reduce fees? I've had to queue outside supermarkets only to find they had no toilet roll, so I guess I should expect lower prices as my shopping experience wasn't up to par.
"The Covid risk to them is negligible and for most university staff it is tiny"
You can keep your No ifs, no buts, no maybes, we had student campuses lockdown due to outbreaks and whilst you may declare everything is grand with no virology or epidemiology qualifications to your name, the simple fact that it increased the spread was why experts chose to close them.
You are wrong.
You can keep your No ifs, no buts, no maybes, we had student campuses lockdown due to outbreaks and whilst you may declare everything is grand with no virology or epidemiology qualifications to your name, the simple fact that it increased the spread was why experts chose to close them.
You are wrong.
"You are wrong."
Or maybe I'm just not totally selfish! Even at 63, I'm not in the least bit frightened by this virus. I want to see young people have the same educational opportunities that I was given. I want them to enjoy the rich kind of student life I enjoyed.
I'm not prepared to steal this from them just to very slightly reduce my chance of dying. It's about being a decent human being.
Or maybe I'm just not totally selfish! Even at 63, I'm not in the least bit frightened by this virus. I want to see young people have the same educational opportunities that I was given. I want them to enjoy the rich kind of student life I enjoyed.
I'm not prepared to steal this from them just to very slightly reduce my chance of dying. It's about being a decent human being.
Well you just hit your own nail on the head.
THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU DAVID.
No point in virtue signalling that you are a "decent human being" because you don't give a fork about the virus.
None of us are "stealing" anything from anyone, it's hardly being selfish to not follow you AND risk others, wise up.
Your original comment is going "down" very well.
You are selfish in your own way.
THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU DAVID.
No point in virtue signalling that you are a "decent human being" because you don't give a fork about the virus.
None of us are "stealing" anything from anyone, it's hardly being selfish to not follow you AND risk others, wise up.
Your original comment is going "down" very well.
You are selfish in your own way.
Student were lured to attend university to lock them into financial contracts for their accommodation and formal start of year sign-up, then hit with the truth of lockdowns in their halls of residence and lectures online. They were deliberately sucker-punched.
I would feel gutted as a student caught out by this. Effectively paying £9k per year plus accommodation for an open uni course
"Scrap interest on student loans say Uni Bosses" - cut the cost of the tuition says everyone else!
Actually in the long run the interest rate is a far bigger problem in the long run. Particularly when your having 9% taken out of your wages for years. But the biggest issues are, costs of going to a uni you can’t commute to from home (adds another 20k ish at least), and the devaluation of degrees due to allowing in more people. Plus the fact that a 2:1 is now worth less because of grade inflat.
??????? The vast majority of university lecturers have been working like mad to make the student experience as good as possible
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
Yeah, but previous generations would have taken to the streets. This lot just head to their room with their phones and sulk about how sad they are & cancel people use speech they hate. Its a generation that doesn't value their freedoms, or at least not enough to get off their backside to fight for them, so perhaps don't deserve what you experienced? There's a bit of an onus on them to make a stand
good old Tony insisting 50% of population need to go to university
Hopefully this will be commonplace and more unis will do this. I'm in 1st year in a course with lots of practical work and there is no way that anyone could even begin to argue that the experience is in any way the same or up to standard it normally would be in terms of workshop access.
I'm hopeful that with the vaccine the summer term will be much better after easter to help us catch up.
I'm hopeful that with the vaccine the summer term will be much better after easter to help us catch up.
As a law grad myself, I disagree with you here. Why should the tax-payer pay for an individual to gain the upper hand? Universities are still private businesses, you still need to pay for your course with NO loans available for Open Uni, and the multitude of online sites. Student loans are graduate taxes - and I shall have paid mine off by October this year - yay!
"You are wrong."
Or maybe I'm just not totally selfish! Even at 63, I'm not in the least bit frightened by this virus. I want to see young people have the same educational opportunities that I was given. I want them to enjoy the rich kind of student life I enjoyed.
I'm not prepared to steal this from them just to very slightly reduce my chance of dying. It's about being a decent human being.
Or maybe I'm just not totally selfish! Even at 63, I'm not in the least bit frightened by this virus. I want to see young people have the same educational opportunities that I was given. I want them to enjoy the rich kind of student life I enjoyed.
I'm not prepared to steal this from them just to very slightly reduce my chance of dying. It's about being a decent human being.
Well you just hit your own nail on the head.
THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU DAVID.
No point in virtue signalling that you are a "decent human being" because you don't give a fork about the virus.
None of us are "stealing" anything from anyone, it's hardly being selfish to not follow you AND risk others, wise up.
Your original comment is going "down" very well.
You are selfish in your own way.
THIS ISN'T ABOUT YOU DAVID.
No point in virtue signalling that you are a "decent human being" because you don't give a fork about the virus.
None of us are "stealing" anything from anyone, it's hardly being selfish to not follow you AND risk others, wise up.
Your original comment is going "down" very well.
You are selfish in your own way.
When travel is cancelled people get a full refund.
It seems appalling that students can't get a refund for the face to face teaching, practical experience, and other aspects of the experience they are not getting due to the pandemic.
It also seems appalling that some are having to pay for accommodation they can't use or don't need due to on-line learning.
It seems appalling that students can't get a refund for the face to face teaching, practical experience, and other aspects of the experience they are not getting due to the pandemic.
It also seems appalling that some are having to pay for accommodation they can't use or don't need due to on-line learning.
??????? The vast majority of university lecturers have been working like mad to make the student experience as good as possible
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
??????? In many cases this has involved rapid development of many high quality materials in addition to live sessions
??????? This has been a very stressful time for uni lecturers. It has not been a picnic.
??????? Many students appreciate the hard work of lecturers
Absolutely, as a student I really appreciate what the lecturers have done. Yet despite all of that effort I bet every one of those lecturers would admit that the courses HAVEN'T been up to the same standard as they normally are, at least in my course which involves numerous practical's which have had to be postponed/binned.
It's possible to commend lecturers and still think students should get £
It's possible to commend lecturers and still think students should get £
I heard of a university student who averaged over 80% in written assignments. They failed their exam which was another written assignment, so why if they averaged over 80% did they fail the exam. I think that was a case for money back and an investigation into the institution.
A guy I studied with was in a similar situation. Aced every essay, failed the exam outright. He was livid. When he explained how he'd answered the exam questions it became very clear that he'd simply not answered the questions that were there. They sounded like brilliant answers but they weren't answering the questions that were set. It's the most basic rule of an exam - answer the darn question!
Most courses these places offer are "less valuable".
All courses have no value at Universities which are bascially converted swimming pools; Bolton, Bath Spa, Suffolk, London Met, Brighton.
What a waste of time and students'/ tax payers' money.
Reduce number of universities by half, then invest into skills schemes (plumbers, electricians, accounting, business admin, things we need)
All courses have no value at Universities which are bascially converted swimming pools; Bolton, Bath Spa, Suffolk, London Met, Brighton.
What a waste of time and students'/ tax payers' money.
Reduce number of universities by half, then invest into skills schemes (plumbers, electricians, accounting, business admin, things we need)