Apprenticeships levy 'has failed on every measure', says HR body
01/03/2021 | news | business | 94
The professional body for HR said apprenticeship starts have fallen and far fewer have gone to young people.
1
01/03/2021 10:59:16 3 12
bbc
Another doom story from the BBC and I know they are only copying on a press briefing from a motivated vested interest group.
So apprenticeships are down during a pandemic and a company that provides HR training courses thinks spending time on the job is a constraint on the scheme and more classroom time is needed.
Perhaps not enough of the government money is getting into HR training.
9
01/03/2021 11:33:14 5 2
bbc
Not during a pandemic.
The study ran from 2016/17 to 2019/20.
2
01/03/2021 11:01:47 1 4
bbc
The CIPD has never been a fan of the apprenticeship levy.
3
01/03/2021 11:03:39 5 7
bbc
They need to allow employers to use the apprenticeship scheme to offer MBA's again. Companies need to improve management skills
7
01/03/2021 11:20:48 11 2
bbc
Need some management skills 1st.

Poor management the "Real British Disease".

Reduce costs, reduce skills, increase bonuses and debt.
4
01/03/2021 11:11:11 29 3
bbc
Last week we had the £bn boss decrying HR.
"There is a tendency for large companies to infantilise their employees and "drown creative people in process and bureaucracy"
This week the head of a group focused on HR qualifications is moaning because there aren't enough HR apprenticeships.
We need apprenticeships in production not process
Skilled craftsmen not box tickers.
More doers less watchers.
48
01/03/2021 15:09:23 2 2
bbc
They are talking about all apprenticeships, not HR apprenticeships.
49
01/03/2021 15:12:17 2 1
bbc
Please re-read the original article. The research is flagging up that ALL types of apprenticeships aren’t currently being supported properly - so it’s actually in line with your view.
5
01/03/2021 11:18:53 3 2
bbc
The basic idea was very good, but the implementation has been terrible. The whole apprenticeship system is poorly designed and what employers can spend the money on is very limited. Also, the amounts of money that can be charged for the training are eye watering compared to the money paid for FT education.
25
01/03/2021 12:41:28 2 1
bbc
As you appear to be a knowledgeable employer, how many apprentices have you employed over the last two years and what’s the eye watering amount you refer to?
6
01/03/2021 11:19:38 23 5
bbc
Wow apprenticeship numbers down.

Lets think, is that down from the last scheme, which really meant business put "Apprentice" in front of all job titles no matter how trivial to claim the "Apprentice Money".

Business would never do that surely?

British companies don't want to train prefer to hire cheap imported labour. Why we are where we are today.
3
01/03/2021 11:03:39 5 7
bbc
They need to allow employers to use the apprenticeship scheme to offer MBA's again. Companies need to improve management skills
7
01/03/2021 11:20:48 11 2
bbc
Need some management skills 1st.

Poor management the "Real British Disease".

Reduce costs, reduce skills, increase bonuses and debt.
13
01/03/2021 11:41:19 0 3
bbc
I hope that you have had experience of senior management, both in the UK and abroad, or are your comments based on the assumption principle? The latter is often confused with the 'my mate down the pub says'.
8
MVP
01/03/2021 11:31:48 5 2
bbc
Most businesses see the Apprenticeship Levy and just another tax.

And it is phenomenally difficult to understand how to claim it back.
10
01/03/2021 11:38:33 1 3
bbc
Like most bureaucracy, all it does is waste time and effort, with the results never justifying the hassle.
61
01/03/2021 16:06:21 1 1
bbc
As someone who worked for providers offering to explain it to employers it is complicated but not that bad.

Many employers don't want it explained to them or want to understand how it works and simply pay it as a tax.

It's pure laziness from employers in many, many cases

There are loads who have investigated, created and invested their levy money with proven beneficial results.
1
01/03/2021 10:59:16 3 12
bbc
Another doom story from the BBC and I know they are only copying on a press briefing from a motivated vested interest group.
So apprenticeships are down during a pandemic and a company that provides HR training courses thinks spending time on the job is a constraint on the scheme and more classroom time is needed.
Perhaps not enough of the government money is getting into HR training.
9
01/03/2021 11:33:14 5 2
bbc
Not during a pandemic.
The study ran from 2016/17 to 2019/20.
8
MVP
01/03/2021 11:31:48 5 2
bbc
Most businesses see the Apprenticeship Levy and just another tax.

And it is phenomenally difficult to understand how to claim it back.
10
01/03/2021 11:38:33 1 3
bbc
Like most bureaucracy, all it does is waste time and effort, with the results never justifying the hassle.
11
01/03/2021 11:38:45 4 2
bbc
It should be made easy for small employers to offer an apprenticeship. It isn't. The Apprenticeship Levy just makes it worse.
12
01/03/2021 11:40:35 7 5
bbc
HR people don't know what real skills are to start with.
They think that pushing a pen around a desk is the sole reason for a business to exist.
7
01/03/2021 11:20:48 11 2
bbc
Need some management skills 1st.

Poor management the "Real British Disease".

Reduce costs, reduce skills, increase bonuses and debt.
13
01/03/2021 11:41:19 0 3
bbc
I hope that you have had experience of senior management, both in the UK and abroad, or are your comments based on the assumption principle? The latter is often confused with the 'my mate down the pub says'.
24
01/03/2021 12:40:51 1 2
bbc
Exactly, but they don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.
14
01/03/2021 11:47:15 3 3
bbc
The Conservatives made huge promises around apprenticeships that they have failed to deliver.

Sunak will do exactly the same thing in Wednesday's Budget.

Talk is cheap.
15
01/03/2021 11:47:47 2 2
bbc
Like the comment below, stick the word in front of the job title, that's all it is. Someone please show me the benefits of this scheme? It's not fit for purpose in its current form.
16
01/03/2021 11:54:21 5 2
bbc
Training is both expensive and time consuming. This means that it’s very difficult for smaller companies to be involved in proper schemes. The system used often seems result in so called 'apprenticeship' that are simply a means to obtain cheap labour.
Before any money is allocated, an investigation of the company concerned and the proposed training, should be undertaken.
17
01/03/2021 11:48:49 2 2
bbc
cheap subsidised labour
19
01/03/2021 12:09:37 4 5
bbc
I'd look at differently and say a lot of you people really do not have a scooby do about much other than social media. The money they get (especially in the early days) is good value for what they bring to the business. It still essentially costs a business to take on an apprentice. Most are next to useless for quite a while.
18
01/03/2021 12:07:48 16 7
bbc
There needs to be a massive re-set in young peoples expectations of life. Too many expect to make good money, basically doing very little with few skills & no sense of reality & dont know what a hard days work is. Get real kids (and quickly). The world does not owe you a living.
20
01/03/2021 12:21:36 10 1
bbc
No doubt your parents held similar views.
Employment has evolved steadily, each generation facing different challenges. Many of the old skills have disappeared in the face of automation, or have ceased altogether.
My experience of employing staff, was that many youngsters are more prepared to try new practices, while older staff can offer their experience. Suitable encouragement is required.
41
01/03/2021 14:12:00 2 1
bbc
Everyone is told they have a career. Expectations are often unrealistic. The reality is most of us have to settle for jobs.
76
01/03/2021 17:30:39 0 2
bbc
Absolutely agree. Too much bad influence on youngsters of “celebrities”, grossly overpaid footballers, media types etc. who then think that a normal salary especially when starting out is insufficient. They need to put in the hard graft at school first. Not like football obsessed teenagers
gazing out of the classroom window - their heroes can hardly string two words together.
17
01/03/2021 11:48:49 2 2
bbc
cheap subsidised labour
19
01/03/2021 12:09:37 4 5
bbc
I'd look at differently and say a lot of you people really do not have a scooby do about much other than social media. The money they get (especially in the early days) is good value for what they bring to the business. It still essentially costs a business to take on an apprentice. Most are next to useless for quite a while.
18
01/03/2021 12:07:48 16 7
bbc
There needs to be a massive re-set in young peoples expectations of life. Too many expect to make good money, basically doing very little with few skills & no sense of reality & dont know what a hard days work is. Get real kids (and quickly). The world does not owe you a living.
20
01/03/2021 12:21:36 10 1
bbc
No doubt your parents held similar views.
Employment has evolved steadily, each generation facing different challenges. Many of the old skills have disappeared in the face of automation, or have ceased altogether.
My experience of employing staff, was that many youngsters are more prepared to try new practices, while older staff can offer their experience. Suitable encouragement is required.
21
01/03/2021 12:24:56 4 2
bbc
One definition of insanity is repeating the same thing again & again and expecting a different result - we have had several versions of "modern apprenticeships" in recent decades none of which have proved effective.
22
01/03/2021 12:39:45 2 1
bbc
Apprenticeships can be good in limited numbers. The truth is we have lost the big British companies, reduced dramatically the size of our Armed Services and now hooked on Imports. Main stream and outdated educationalists despise/ under resource Trainers and their facilities. Your children have an increasingly difficult future.
23
01/03/2021 12:40:32 14 2
bbc
Apprenticeships are for people of all ages for developing new skills, upskilling for next role and helping career changes. BBC please stop all this young versus everyone else. I'm a 46 year old apprentice, working fulltime and getting into a new industry sector.
60
01/03/2021 16:02:39 2 1
bbc
Glad to hear it Simon - as someone who's worked for providers in the past this article is incensing me!
13
01/03/2021 11:41:19 0 3
bbc
I hope that you have had experience of senior management, both in the UK and abroad, or are your comments based on the assumption principle? The latter is often confused with the 'my mate down the pub says'.
24
01/03/2021 12:40:51 1 2
bbc
Exactly, but they don't let facts get in the way of a good whinge.
5
01/03/2021 11:18:53 3 2
bbc
The basic idea was very good, but the implementation has been terrible. The whole apprenticeship system is poorly designed and what employers can spend the money on is very limited. Also, the amounts of money that can be charged for the training are eye watering compared to the money paid for FT education.
25
01/03/2021 12:41:28 2 1
bbc
As you appear to be a knowledgeable employer, how many apprentices have you employed over the last two years and what’s the eye watering amount you refer to?
33
01/03/2021 13:04:16 1 1
bbc
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apprenticeship-funding-bands

How about £13k for one day per week IT technician course that lasts for 18 months?
Full time students at the same level are funded at £4100 per year and Degrees at £9k.
26
01/03/2021 12:42:08 0 1
bbc
It's not major employers

It's every employer with more than a 3 million payroll and that is pretty small.

It's shameless taxing anything that can't move fast enough in such a complicated way that it's hard to understand

The rule were invented by bureaucrats and so they don't work

The nature of bureaucracy generally is that it is a work creation scheme to control the people with no benefits
27
01/03/2021 12:43:49 6 2
bbc
I teach degree apprentices. Magnificent smart switched-on individuals, a bit arrogant at times, but a delight to teach most of the time. It's great to see them getting a flying start on their careers. Many are in a position to buy their first homes by the time they graduate, debt free...
34
01/03/2021 13:39:29 0 7
bbc
Just part time students with a fancy title?
59
01/03/2021 16:01:37 1 1
bbc
Thank you for someone with actual experience on delivering apprenticeships calling out the nonsense from CIPD and the HYS posters
28
01/03/2021 12:46:25 1 1
bbc
Apprenticeships are about on the job learning, if there isn't enough work for the employees a company can't take on apprentices
29
01/03/2021 12:47:19 4 1
bbc
A great example of where promising something and never delivering is worse than shutting up and saying nothing

Employers are now waiting for reform to a scheme that doesn't work and deliberately not doing anything because it's hopeless

Educational establishments are waiting for reform too

A Mexican stand off if ever I saw one

Great example where government getting involved makes it worse
30
01/03/2021 12:55:54 0 3
bbc
the young always remember how they have been treated by poor govt policy, so long Boris
31
01/03/2021 12:56:02 14 2
bbc
The only winners from the apprenticeship levy are the many "accredited training providers" that have sprung up to cash in on the funds. The problem is that the training they provide isn't good enough or relevant enough to be of any real benefit to the employer. Perfectly good employer run schemes have now been scrapped as a result with no viable alternative offered.
37
01/03/2021 13:48:32 4 1
bbc
spot on Dave - like everything including "green economy" - those who are delivering are penalised, those who talk and waffle get the money....hot air salespersons
40
01/03/2021 14:09:12 3 1
bbc
At one time most of the training was done with the employers. Local Further Education Colleges tailored subjects for block release and oversaw examinations. It was a real partnership between them both.
58
01/03/2021 16:00:35 2 1
bbc
Not really, yes it has created a new industry of training providers.

But if employers were willing to pay, train and manage a proper apprenticeship programme themselves it wouldn't have happened.

In the UK companies generally are actually terrible at training and development of staff in many, many industries.

Want to know how many employers had apprentices before the Levy? About 10%
32
01/03/2021 12:53:27 8 2
bbc
Modern apprenticeships are a joke. Best bet is to just go and work for a company or person that does useful things. Learn from the old hands!
25
01/03/2021 12:41:28 2 1
bbc
As you appear to be a knowledgeable employer, how many apprentices have you employed over the last two years and what’s the eye watering amount you refer to?
33
01/03/2021 13:04:16 1 1
bbc
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apprenticeship-funding-bands

How about £13k for one day per week IT technician course that lasts for 18 months?
Full time students at the same level are funded at £4100 per year and Degrees at £9k.
62
01/03/2021 16:08:38 0 1
bbc
As someone who worked for a provider some of the IT/Digital funding bands are very, very high and resulted in loads of providers specialising in this area.

Never compared it to FT/degrees though and when you put it like that it does make me wonder!!
27
01/03/2021 12:43:49 6 2
bbc
I teach degree apprentices. Magnificent smart switched-on individuals, a bit arrogant at times, but a delight to teach most of the time. It's great to see them getting a flying start on their careers. Many are in a position to buy their first homes by the time they graduate, debt free...
34
01/03/2021 13:39:29 0 7
bbc
Just part time students with a fancy title?
35
01/03/2021 13:44:45 3 1
bbc
For many years apprenticeships have been a dirty word for both companies who wanted someone else to do the training and young people who looked down on them as badly paid drudgery! When I started work I was one of 40 apprentices in my firm but the idea soon fell into disfavour.
36
01/03/2021 13:47:30 5 1
bbc
this has been total failure - if has penalised those already doing high quality apprenticeships as we are doing - while giving money to people faking apprenticeships under another banner - this was all about raising money under a banner of "support" - put simply, employers shouldn't have to pay levy if they have active and high quality apprentice programme - but of course that wouldn't raise £..
56
01/03/2021 15:55:29 1 1
bbc
Total failure is a bit strong but i agree with some of the sentiments. It was definitely a way to raise money for the gov, no doubt. As someone involved in helping employers create apprenticeship programmes it has much, much improved many poor apprenticeships and also given new routes to degrees etc for other industries.

If you already had a decent app programme though i can imagine its not ideal
31
01/03/2021 12:56:02 14 2
bbc
The only winners from the apprenticeship levy are the many "accredited training providers" that have sprung up to cash in on the funds. The problem is that the training they provide isn't good enough or relevant enough to be of any real benefit to the employer. Perfectly good employer run schemes have now been scrapped as a result with no viable alternative offered.
37
01/03/2021 13:48:32 4 1
bbc
spot on Dave - like everything including "green economy" - those who are delivering are penalised, those who talk and waffle get the money....hot air salespersons
38
01/03/2021 14:00:26 11 1
bbc
Today too many jobs require a degree root in whereas you could work your way up via an apprenticeship.

There needs to be a total evaluation of the apprenticeship route within both state and private sectors.

How many caring individuals are put off nursing because it’s now a degree subject? What about the mechanically minded who want to gradually works their way up to Charted Engineer status?
55
01/03/2021 15:51:58 2 2
bbc
There are degree apprenticeships - they are/were proving very successful and many. many employers like them.

But the govt doesn't like it being offered to established staff whom may not be so young and they are actively making changes to block them against employer wishes!!
74
01/03/2021 17:20:26 0 1
bbc
Nursing is now highly technical and skilled. Most nurses are now doing work that was reserved to doctors 10 years ago that’s why they need degree level training and skills. Healthcare assistants now carry out the less skilled but no less important tasks that nurses used to do.
There should be a way for nurses to continue their training and development to become doctors.
39
01/03/2021 14:04:11 23 1
bbc
The word Apprentice is massively overused and abused to describe any kind of training. It has diluted the term, originally used to describe skilled long term training and education given to indentured qualified skilled tradespeople.
47
01/03/2021 15:06:36 10 1
bbc
spot-on !!!
81
01/03/2021 19:01:45 1 1
bbc
Absolutely, even Government departments take on apprentices, as they used to take on YTS etc.

It's all been a box ticking exercise in the art of getting people off the unemployment figures, and has singularly failed to address the skills shortages we have.
31
01/03/2021 12:56:02 14 2
bbc
The only winners from the apprenticeship levy are the many "accredited training providers" that have sprung up to cash in on the funds. The problem is that the training they provide isn't good enough or relevant enough to be of any real benefit to the employer. Perfectly good employer run schemes have now been scrapped as a result with no viable alternative offered.
40
01/03/2021 14:09:12 3 1
bbc
At one time most of the training was done with the employers. Local Further Education Colleges tailored subjects for block release and oversaw examinations. It was a real partnership between them both.
18
01/03/2021 12:07:48 16 7
bbc
There needs to be a massive re-set in young peoples expectations of life. Too many expect to make good money, basically doing very little with few skills & no sense of reality & dont know what a hard days work is. Get real kids (and quickly). The world does not owe you a living.
41
01/03/2021 14:12:00 2 1
bbc
Everyone is told they have a career. Expectations are often unrealistic. The reality is most of us have to settle for jobs.
42
vwg
01/03/2021 14:23:18 3 1
bbc
An employee of my previous company studied an MBA at university, part time due to a specific clause in the courses' curriculum. This money should have gone to apprentices but instead went to company management. Fraud in my opinion.
43
vwg
01/03/2021 14:26:28 4 1
bbc
And signed off by HR, a member of CIPD...
42
vwg
01/03/2021 14:23:18 3 1
bbc
An employee of my previous company studied an MBA at university, part time due to a specific clause in the courses' curriculum. This money should have gone to apprentices but instead went to company management. Fraud in my opinion.
43
vwg
01/03/2021 14:26:28 4 1
bbc
And signed off by HR, a member of CIPD...
44
01/03/2021 14:35:46 2 7
bbc
Yet another Tory failure which they will hide under the carpet.
45
01/03/2021 14:38:44 8 4
bbc
'My experience of employing staff, was that many youngsters are more prepared to try new practices' like getting out of bed,not playing with the phone just 2 examples. A minority have the mindset but the majority cannot do the basics they just dream of making money from you tube or some other hair brained scheme.
54
01/03/2021 15:49:55 2 5
bbc
You employed the wrong youngsters or simply didn't pay enough to get good ones.
75
01/03/2021 17:27:15 2 1
bbc
Then you are unable at interview to sort the wheat from the chaff or perhaps you are unable to inspire.It has been a privelege for me to train 4 youngsters who needed a start in life, I gave them trust and they never let me down. Oddly one of them had bad references froma previous job but It was clear her previous boss had no ability to inspire a young person and get them to be their best.
46
01/03/2021 15:06:19 8 2
bbc
Companies shouldn't need to be bribed to take on apprentices or trainees, it should be an established natural process already in place within the Company.
39
01/03/2021 14:04:11 23 1
bbc
The word Apprentice is massively overused and abused to describe any kind of training. It has diluted the term, originally used to describe skilled long term training and education given to indentured qualified skilled tradespeople.
47
01/03/2021 15:06:36 10 1
bbc
spot-on !!!
4
01/03/2021 11:11:11 29 3
bbc
Last week we had the £bn boss decrying HR.
"There is a tendency for large companies to infantilise their employees and "drown creative people in process and bureaucracy"
This week the head of a group focused on HR qualifications is moaning because there aren't enough HR apprenticeships.
We need apprenticeships in production not process
Skilled craftsmen not box tickers.
More doers less watchers.
48
01/03/2021 15:09:23 2 2
bbc
They are talking about all apprenticeships, not HR apprenticeships.
4
01/03/2021 11:11:11 29 3
bbc
Last week we had the £bn boss decrying HR.
"There is a tendency for large companies to infantilise their employees and "drown creative people in process and bureaucracy"
This week the head of a group focused on HR qualifications is moaning because there aren't enough HR apprenticeships.
We need apprenticeships in production not process
Skilled craftsmen not box tickers.
More doers less watchers.
49
01/03/2021 15:12:17 2 1
bbc
Please re-read the original article. The research is flagging up that ALL types of apprenticeships aren’t currently being supported properly - so it’s actually in line with your view.
50
01/03/2021 15:13:15 0 2
bbc
The levy has added to an already expensive training package. I have no doubt that it is putting employers off. Many businesses don't have the luxury of being able to take unskilled people on and train them up. The government should making it easier for them to do so, not charging them for the privilege.
51
01/03/2021 15:32:45 5 2
bbc
In my experience HR departments are usually useless.

On that basis I think the CIPD would be well advised to put its own house in order before making sweeping statements about government policy.
52
01/03/2021 15:42:23 3 2
bbc
No surprises with this. This government has hit new heights of incompetence. It starts at the top and trickles its way down through an ill chosen group of senior ministers.
53
01/03/2021 15:46:40 11 1
bbc
Back in 1964 I went through a 5-year apprenticeship with one day a week in technical college. An excellent start to real life, and a method we should still be following. Not all kids want to do Media Studies, we should support those that love engineering and construction.
45
01/03/2021 14:38:44 8 4
bbc
'My experience of employing staff, was that many youngsters are more prepared to try new practices' like getting out of bed,not playing with the phone just 2 examples. A minority have the mindset but the majority cannot do the basics they just dream of making money from you tube or some other hair brained scheme.
54
01/03/2021 15:49:55 2 5
bbc
You employed the wrong youngsters or simply didn't pay enough to get good ones.
38
01/03/2021 14:00:26 11 1
bbc
Today too many jobs require a degree root in whereas you could work your way up via an apprenticeship.

There needs to be a total evaluation of the apprenticeship route within both state and private sectors.

How many caring individuals are put off nursing because it’s now a degree subject? What about the mechanically minded who want to gradually works their way up to Charted Engineer status?
55
01/03/2021 15:51:58 2 2
bbc
There are degree apprenticeships - they are/were proving very successful and many. many employers like them.

But the govt doesn't like it being offered to established staff whom may not be so young and they are actively making changes to block them against employer wishes!!
36
01/03/2021 13:47:30 5 1
bbc
this has been total failure - if has penalised those already doing high quality apprenticeships as we are doing - while giving money to people faking apprenticeships under another banner - this was all about raising money under a banner of "support" - put simply, employers shouldn't have to pay levy if they have active and high quality apprentice programme - but of course that wouldn't raise £..
56
01/03/2021 15:55:29 1 1
bbc
Total failure is a bit strong but i agree with some of the sentiments. It was definitely a way to raise money for the gov, no doubt. As someone involved in helping employers create apprenticeship programmes it has much, much improved many poor apprenticeships and also given new routes to degrees etc for other industries.

If you already had a decent app programme though i can imagine its not ideal
57
01/03/2021 15:56:28 1 1
bbc
Levy was brought in to make big employers train, cos small companies were training and qualified staff poached. But, the levy costs small employers more money than it used to, and thus those small employers train less now... Was obvious to those in apprenticeships this was going to happen but govt didn't listen, this is second time a levy has been tried and failed in most sectors.
65
Ant
01/03/2021 16:21:27 3 2
bbc
The opposite is actually true. Big companies are training, because they make the business decision to allocate funds to training new and existing staff (perhaps there's some connection between training your staff and becoming successful)

Medium and small companies either try to poach staff whose training costs have been paid for by someone else or mass interview to try and find hidden talent.
31
01/03/2021 12:56:02 14 2
bbc
The only winners from the apprenticeship levy are the many "accredited training providers" that have sprung up to cash in on the funds. The problem is that the training they provide isn't good enough or relevant enough to be of any real benefit to the employer. Perfectly good employer run schemes have now been scrapped as a result with no viable alternative offered.
58
01/03/2021 16:00:35 2 1
bbc
Not really, yes it has created a new industry of training providers.

But if employers were willing to pay, train and manage a proper apprenticeship programme themselves it wouldn't have happened.

In the UK companies generally are actually terrible at training and development of staff in many, many industries.

Want to know how many employers had apprentices before the Levy? About 10%
27
01/03/2021 12:43:49 6 2
bbc
I teach degree apprentices. Magnificent smart switched-on individuals, a bit arrogant at times, but a delight to teach most of the time. It's great to see them getting a flying start on their careers. Many are in a position to buy their first homes by the time they graduate, debt free...
59
01/03/2021 16:01:37 1 1
bbc
Thank you for someone with actual experience on delivering apprenticeships calling out the nonsense from CIPD and the HYS posters
23
01/03/2021 12:40:32 14 2
bbc
Apprenticeships are for people of all ages for developing new skills, upskilling for next role and helping career changes. BBC please stop all this young versus everyone else. I'm a 46 year old apprentice, working fulltime and getting into a new industry sector.
60
01/03/2021 16:02:39 2 1
bbc
Glad to hear it Simon - as someone who's worked for providers in the past this article is incensing me!
8
MVP
01/03/2021 11:31:48 5 2
bbc
Most businesses see the Apprenticeship Levy and just another tax.

And it is phenomenally difficult to understand how to claim it back.
61
01/03/2021 16:06:21 1 1
bbc
As someone who worked for providers offering to explain it to employers it is complicated but not that bad.

Many employers don't want it explained to them or want to understand how it works and simply pay it as a tax.

It's pure laziness from employers in many, many cases

There are loads who have investigated, created and invested their levy money with proven beneficial results.
33
01/03/2021 13:04:16 1 1
bbc
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apprenticeship-funding-bands

How about £13k for one day per week IT technician course that lasts for 18 months?
Full time students at the same level are funded at £4100 per year and Degrees at £9k.
62
01/03/2021 16:08:38 0 1
bbc
As someone who worked for a provider some of the IT/Digital funding bands are very, very high and resulted in loads of providers specialising in this area.

Never compared it to FT/degrees though and when you put it like that it does make me wonder!!
63
01/03/2021 16:10:31 1 2
bbc
I have referred 13 new accounting apprenticeships to training providers in my area since November 2020 in the middle of a pandemic.

Previously to the Levy these qualifications were only available via college or university

Why not ask some good employers and apprentices what they think??

I can tell you now it will be way, way more positive than this from CIPD
64
Ant
01/03/2021 16:16:44 6 2
bbc
What employers are doing is advertising job vacancies as apprenticeships, with an apprenticeship wage and employment contract conditions, yet expecting the same skills and experience which could reasonably expected from a full time, full waged position with reasonable employment contract terms.

Apprentices are expected to learn on the job, not have all the skills they need as soon as they start.
67
01/03/2021 16:39:19 5 1
bbc
As someone who's recruited 300+ apprentices, !'ve never seen this happen.

Mainly because if a business tried to offer say £5-7 per hour for a skilled job with experience they would get two things;

1. Literally 0 applications
2. Serious applicants laughing at them before sharing it on social media and the employer receiving very unfavourable PR!

It would be the worst recruitment campaign ever
57
01/03/2021 15:56:28 1 1
bbc
Levy was brought in to make big employers train, cos small companies were training and qualified staff poached. But, the levy costs small employers more money than it used to, and thus those small employers train less now... Was obvious to those in apprenticeships this was going to happen but govt didn't listen, this is second time a levy has been tried and failed in most sectors.
65
Ant
01/03/2021 16:21:27 3 2
bbc
The opposite is actually true. Big companies are training, because they make the business decision to allocate funds to training new and existing staff (perhaps there's some connection between training your staff and becoming successful)

Medium and small companies either try to poach staff whose training costs have been paid for by someone else or mass interview to try and find hidden talent.
90
01/03/2021 22:17:47 0 1
bbc
Not in the building trades, electrical and plumbing. The levy has halved numbers.
66
Ant
01/03/2021 16:23:59 3 1
bbc
In the company years I expect large companies to stay large, but perhaps not generate as much growth as they expected. Medium and smaller sized companies are going to have to fight to keep their businesses viable.

Apprenticeships are about finding talent which has potential and paying to train them (with the government's help). Not recruiting fully trained staff on low wages and being paid for it
64
Ant
01/03/2021 16:16:44 6 2
bbc
What employers are doing is advertising job vacancies as apprenticeships, with an apprenticeship wage and employment contract conditions, yet expecting the same skills and experience which could reasonably expected from a full time, full waged position with reasonable employment contract terms.

Apprentices are expected to learn on the job, not have all the skills they need as soon as they start.
67
01/03/2021 16:39:19 5 1
bbc
As someone who's recruited 300+ apprentices, !'ve never seen this happen.

Mainly because if a business tried to offer say £5-7 per hour for a skilled job with experience they would get two things;

1. Literally 0 applications
2. Serious applicants laughing at them before sharing it on social media and the employer receiving very unfavourable PR!

It would be the worst recruitment campaign ever
68
Ant
01/03/2021 16:54:41 0 2
bbc
I can refer you to many many apprenticeships in my area of the country (North West) which adopt this approach.

1) They may indeed receive 0 applicants, as they should, that doesn't stop them from keeping the position advertised in the hope a skilled person is stupid enough (or desperate enough) to pursue the offer.

2) I imagine most people wouldn't waste their time doing so.
67
01/03/2021 16:39:19 5 1
bbc
As someone who's recruited 300+ apprentices, !'ve never seen this happen.

Mainly because if a business tried to offer say £5-7 per hour for a skilled job with experience they would get two things;

1. Literally 0 applications
2. Serious applicants laughing at them before sharing it on social media and the employer receiving very unfavourable PR!

It would be the worst recruitment campaign ever
68
Ant
01/03/2021 16:54:41 0 2
bbc
I can refer you to many many apprenticeships in my area of the country (North West) which adopt this approach.

1) They may indeed receive 0 applicants, as they should, that doesn't stop them from keeping the position advertised in the hope a skilled person is stupid enough (or desperate enough) to pursue the offer.

2) I imagine most people wouldn't waste their time doing so.
69
Ian
01/03/2021 17:02:22 2 3
bbc
We were to have started 3 apprentices today. Unfortunately one of them couldn't be bothered to turn up and we've had no contact from him. That's 2 in 6 months that fell at the first hurdle. The earlier failure kept falling asleep on the job!!
71
01/03/2021 17:10:18 0 1
bbc
Wow!! As someone who used to be involved in recruiting apprentices I can both relate and also suggest slight improvements to the recruitment process.

Honestly I used to make apprentice recruitment processes quite hard but it was worth it to avoid this happening!
73
Ant
01/03/2021 17:11:03 1 1
bbc
Lol, you're either recruiting in the wrong places or your methods of assessing candidates isn't up to scratch.

At least you can be safe in the knowledge you're giving people a chance, which not all employers do, presumably for the reasons you've mentioned.
85
01/03/2021 20:33:28 0 1
bbc
Convenient you just happened to start apprentices on the day this HYS appears.
89
01/03/2021 21:54:13 0 1
bbc
In the old days 5 tradesmen to one apprentice. One to hold each limb and the 5th to insill the disapline.
70
Ian
01/03/2021 17:04:10 1 3
bbc
And btw we're paying nearly £10 an hour!
69
Ian
01/03/2021 17:02:22 2 3
bbc
We were to have started 3 apprentices today. Unfortunately one of them couldn't be bothered to turn up and we've had no contact from him. That's 2 in 6 months that fell at the first hurdle. The earlier failure kept falling asleep on the job!!
71
01/03/2021 17:10:18 0 1
bbc
Wow!! As someone who used to be involved in recruiting apprentices I can both relate and also suggest slight improvements to the recruitment process.

Honestly I used to make apprentice recruitment processes quite hard but it was worth it to avoid this happening!
72
01/03/2021 17:10:18 0 2
bbc
Apprenticeships should be for the young as in the past. Now it seems it is just an excuse using the word to cover adult job training.

Pay must be reduced for apprentices, making it closer to those paying for university courses. So more employers can afford to have apprentices with every skilled person. Learning on the job is the only proper education in work tasks. Not daft degrees.
78
01/03/2021 17:59:22 1 1
bbc
Why shouldn't a 30+yr old having to retrain (post covid possibly) be classed as an apprentice?
What is your definition of a 'work task'? I agree that many occupations are much better served by apprenticeships, but it’s often the level within the job that decides what should form the basis. Working with a plumber, wouldn't help someone wishing to be a hydraulics engineer (an extreme example)
82
01/03/2021 19:15:32 2 1
bbc
Apprentices get £4.15 per hour - what do you want that reduced to?

The world has changed. A lot of the tasks that could be learnt purely on the job are now done by computer-controlled machines or people paid $5 a day. Fixing those machines - let alone building them - needs education: Daft degrees.
69
Ian
01/03/2021 17:02:22 2 3
bbc
We were to have started 3 apprentices today. Unfortunately one of them couldn't be bothered to turn up and we've had no contact from him. That's 2 in 6 months that fell at the first hurdle. The earlier failure kept falling asleep on the job!!
73
Ant
01/03/2021 17:11:03 1 1
bbc
Lol, you're either recruiting in the wrong places or your methods of assessing candidates isn't up to scratch.

At least you can be safe in the knowledge you're giving people a chance, which not all employers do, presumably for the reasons you've mentioned.
38
01/03/2021 14:00:26 11 1
bbc
Today too many jobs require a degree root in whereas you could work your way up via an apprenticeship.

There needs to be a total evaluation of the apprenticeship route within both state and private sectors.

How many caring individuals are put off nursing because it’s now a degree subject? What about the mechanically minded who want to gradually works their way up to Charted Engineer status?
74
01/03/2021 17:20:26 0 1
bbc
Nursing is now highly technical and skilled. Most nurses are now doing work that was reserved to doctors 10 years ago that’s why they need degree level training and skills. Healthcare assistants now carry out the less skilled but no less important tasks that nurses used to do.
There should be a way for nurses to continue their training and development to become doctors.
45
01/03/2021 14:38:44 8 4
bbc
'My experience of employing staff, was that many youngsters are more prepared to try new practices' like getting out of bed,not playing with the phone just 2 examples. A minority have the mindset but the majority cannot do the basics they just dream of making money from you tube or some other hair brained scheme.
75
01/03/2021 17:27:15 2 1
bbc
Then you are unable at interview to sort the wheat from the chaff or perhaps you are unable to inspire.It has been a privelege for me to train 4 youngsters who needed a start in life, I gave them trust and they never let me down. Oddly one of them had bad references froma previous job but It was clear her previous boss had no ability to inspire a young person and get them to be their best.
18
01/03/2021 12:07:48 16 7
bbc
There needs to be a massive re-set in young peoples expectations of life. Too many expect to make good money, basically doing very little with few skills & no sense of reality & dont know what a hard days work is. Get real kids (and quickly). The world does not owe you a living.
76
01/03/2021 17:30:39 0 2
bbc
Absolutely agree. Too much bad influence on youngsters of “celebrities”, grossly overpaid footballers, media types etc. who then think that a normal salary especially when starting out is insufficient. They need to put in the hard graft at school first. Not like football obsessed teenagers
gazing out of the classroom window - their heroes can hardly string two words together.
77
01/03/2021 17:33:10 7 2
bbc
First make apprenticeships what they used to be(ONC+). Then make employers responsible for training on the job not expecting taxpayers to pay for college based training giving them ready to use workers. Youth training schemes fail because many parents do not regard them as authentic entries into the work place. Employers see cheap workers and let them go as soon time is up and money in pocket.
72
01/03/2021 17:10:18 0 2
bbc
Apprenticeships should be for the young as in the past. Now it seems it is just an excuse using the word to cover adult job training.

Pay must be reduced for apprentices, making it closer to those paying for university courses. So more employers can afford to have apprentices with every skilled person. Learning on the job is the only proper education in work tasks. Not daft degrees.
78
01/03/2021 17:59:22 1 1
bbc
Why shouldn't a 30+yr old having to retrain (post covid possibly) be classed as an apprentice?
What is your definition of a 'work task'? I agree that many occupations are much better served by apprenticeships, but it’s often the level within the job that decides what should form the basis. Working with a plumber, wouldn't help someone wishing to be a hydraulics engineer (an extreme example)
80
01/03/2021 18:04:26 0 2
bbc
I suspect a lot of these older apprenticeships are as much to do with the minimum wage (albeit 1 year only if over 19) implications as training.
79
01/03/2021 18:03:01 4 1
bbc
For decades British industry has viewed training as someone else's responsibility. Apprentices have been essentially gophers, taken on because the govt. has paid them a grant to do so - cheap labour basically.

German "Azubi" system that is structured and involves practical and classroom learning, with a pass or fail exam at the end is the way the UK needs to go.
83
01/03/2021 19:23:41 2 1
bbc
Yes always saying we should follow a German model which values technical education far better than we do and look at their manufacturing and export sector?

BMW, Mercedes etc have some of the best apprenticeships in the world
78
01/03/2021 17:59:22 1 1
bbc
Why shouldn't a 30+yr old having to retrain (post covid possibly) be classed as an apprentice?
What is your definition of a 'work task'? I agree that many occupations are much better served by apprenticeships, but it’s often the level within the job that decides what should form the basis. Working with a plumber, wouldn't help someone wishing to be a hydraulics engineer (an extreme example)
80
01/03/2021 18:04:26 0 2
bbc
I suspect a lot of these older apprenticeships are as much to do with the minimum wage (albeit 1 year only if over 19) implications as training.
39
01/03/2021 14:04:11 23 1
bbc
The word Apprentice is massively overused and abused to describe any kind of training. It has diluted the term, originally used to describe skilled long term training and education given to indentured qualified skilled tradespeople.
81
01/03/2021 19:01:45 1 1
bbc
Absolutely, even Government departments take on apprentices, as they used to take on YTS etc.

It's all been a box ticking exercise in the art of getting people off the unemployment figures, and has singularly failed to address the skills shortages we have.
72
01/03/2021 17:10:18 0 2
bbc
Apprenticeships should be for the young as in the past. Now it seems it is just an excuse using the word to cover adult job training.

Pay must be reduced for apprentices, making it closer to those paying for university courses. So more employers can afford to have apprentices with every skilled person. Learning on the job is the only proper education in work tasks. Not daft degrees.
82
01/03/2021 19:15:32 2 1
bbc
Apprentices get £4.15 per hour - what do you want that reduced to?

The world has changed. A lot of the tasks that could be learnt purely on the job are now done by computer-controlled machines or people paid $5 a day. Fixing those machines - let alone building them - needs education: Daft degrees.
91
01/03/2021 22:36:02 0 1
bbc
Although I rarely agree with JSG about anything, I do think that several degrees are taken, simply as a means to attend University.
Very few people with degrees in Media Studies work in the Media. Other subjects are more to apprenticeships rather than degrees. Some, a mixture of both. My son's degree in Computer Science included a 1year period in industry as part of the course.
79
01/03/2021 18:03:01 4 1
bbc
For decades British industry has viewed training as someone else's responsibility. Apprentices have been essentially gophers, taken on because the govt. has paid them a grant to do so - cheap labour basically.

German "Azubi" system that is structured and involves practical and classroom learning, with a pass or fail exam at the end is the way the UK needs to go.
83
01/03/2021 19:23:41 2 1
bbc
Yes always saying we should follow a German model which values technical education far better than we do and look at their manufacturing and export sector?

BMW, Mercedes etc have some of the best apprenticeships in the world
84
01/03/2021 19:25:29 1 1
bbc
The model is mostly fine, the problem as almost always when it comes to training and development is the employers and their short term quarterly profit driven objectives!
69
Ian
01/03/2021 17:02:22 2 3
bbc
We were to have started 3 apprentices today. Unfortunately one of them couldn't be bothered to turn up and we've had no contact from him. That's 2 in 6 months that fell at the first hurdle. The earlier failure kept falling asleep on the job!!
85
01/03/2021 20:33:28 0 1
bbc
Convenient you just happened to start apprentices on the day this HYS appears.
86
01/03/2021 20:36:26 1 2
bbc
This government is bereft of ideas , all we have are endless policy failures which doesn’t surprise me in the least.
87
01/03/2021 21:45:12 1 1
bbc
As a person who server a 4 Year (and that was to short) aprenticeship under the City & Guilds system & worked in the building Industry for 56 years I have seen the masive reduction in the knowlage of the tradesmen over the years.
88
01/03/2021 21:46:04 0 1
bbc
We were trained in the practical skills in the work place by tradesmen & we produced a usefull end product.
The City & Guilds collage couse covered Design, Building Regulations, Technical Drawing, Maths, Sicence, Technoligy, Quantity surveying, Setting out / surveying
69
Ian
01/03/2021 17:02:22 2 3
bbc
We were to have started 3 apprentices today. Unfortunately one of them couldn't be bothered to turn up and we've had no contact from him. That's 2 in 6 months that fell at the first hurdle. The earlier failure kept falling asleep on the job!!
89
01/03/2021 21:54:13 0 1
bbc
In the old days 5 tradesmen to one apprentice. One to hold each limb and the 5th to insill the disapline.
65
Ant
01/03/2021 16:21:27 3 2
bbc
The opposite is actually true. Big companies are training, because they make the business decision to allocate funds to training new and existing staff (perhaps there's some connection between training your staff and becoming successful)

Medium and small companies either try to poach staff whose training costs have been paid for by someone else or mass interview to try and find hidden talent.
90
01/03/2021 22:17:47 0 1
bbc
Not in the building trades, electrical and plumbing. The levy has halved numbers.
82
01/03/2021 19:15:32 2 1
bbc
Apprentices get £4.15 per hour - what do you want that reduced to?

The world has changed. A lot of the tasks that could be learnt purely on the job are now done by computer-controlled machines or people paid $5 a day. Fixing those machines - let alone building them - needs education: Daft degrees.
91
01/03/2021 22:36:02 0 1
bbc
Although I rarely agree with JSG about anything, I do think that several degrees are taken, simply as a means to attend University.
Very few people with degrees in Media Studies work in the Media. Other subjects are more to apprenticeships rather than degrees. Some, a mixture of both. My son's degree in Computer Science included a 1year period in industry as part of the course.
92
02/03/2021 02:18:28 1 1
bbc
I can distinctly remember when employer ethos in UK changed from "training [as in years, not days] your own staff" and "career structure" to "poaching someone else's staff" and "jobs"
It coincided with "no such thing as a job for life", closing company pension/outsourcing them, end of both unions and company loyalty in both directions
It happened in the 1980s, when "employees" became "overheads"
93
02/03/2021 12:21:46 0 1
bbc
and personnel department became HR. Going back years, a lot of the mangers in the personnel department were ex military officers, so bags of practical experience and common sense, less management theory. It was better back then.
92
02/03/2021 02:18:28 1 1
bbc
I can distinctly remember when employer ethos in UK changed from "training [as in years, not days] your own staff" and "career structure" to "poaching someone else's staff" and "jobs"
It coincided with "no such thing as a job for life", closing company pension/outsourcing them, end of both unions and company loyalty in both directions
It happened in the 1980s, when "employees" became "overheads"
93
02/03/2021 12:21:46 0 1
bbc
and personnel department became HR. Going back years, a lot of the mangers in the personnel department were ex military officers, so bags of practical experience and common sense, less management theory. It was better back then.
94
02/03/2021 12:28:26 0 0
bbc
I don't think HR really have much of a right to complain. They should count themselves lucky that government is trying to help. It's down to their policies that training and nurturing staff has declined and "poaching" already trained skilled people from elsewhere has increased.