Budget 2021: Support pubs by cutting beer duty, say Conservative MPs
26/02/2021 | news | business | 211
Cheaper beer could support struggling pubs MPs argue, but alcohol awareness campaigners are opposed.
1
26/02/2021 10:22:28 9 3
bbc
The price of a pint in the pub is ridicculous, for pubs to survive they need to be able to charge less

Started homebrewing as a hobby in lockdown and can make a half decent batch for around 50p a pint, if i can do this myself then with bulk buying you would think that a brewery can make it for far less, why is it that by the time it gets to the pub it costs £4-5 a pint

Something is very wrong
6
26/02/2021 10:30:43 3 0
bbc
Tax
8
26/02/2021 10:31:25 2 0
bbc
A fair observation; pub companies (not landlords) take the lions share I believe.
21
26/02/2021 10:53:48 1 1
bbc
The brewery needs to pay staff - did you work out what the labour cost was on your home brew. It needs water (a lot) and that is charged, electricity, rent, rates, storage, transportation, Beer Duty (although smaller breweries pay less than the big boys) VAT.
A micro brewery will sell a barrel (72 pints, but you will only get around 68 out for real ale) for around £130INC VAT.
201
26/02/2021 18:31:23 0 0
bbc
I've been home brewing for years. Loads of beer, cider and wine available. They keep for years despite what might be said on the kits. Still have a batch of Landlord Bitter that tastes as good as anything similar in a pub or supermarket and is approaching 5 years in the bottle. Leave all beers and ciders for at least 3 months in the bottle before drinking.
2
KRR
26/02/2021 10:23:08 13 11
bbc
Yup, there's some Top Tory Thinking, there.

When people emerge from a pandemic that has left many troubled with mental health problems, let's make it easier and cheaper for them to get hammered so's their problems can get even worse.
40
26/02/2021 11:31:30 9 21
bbc
It was guaranteed that the anti-Tories weren't going to like this proposal.

Never ruddy satisfied.
84
26/02/2021 12:29:19 2 1
bbc
Alcoholics drink at home, not in the pub. Pub landlords don't like drunkenness, because it can cause them to lose their licence, and their livelihood.
3
DSA
26/02/2021 10:26:07 4 3
bbc
I would suggest leaving things as they are until Covid is really under control rather than providing the opportunity to have an extra pint in a crowded pub where distancing is the last consideration after 6 or more pints.
4
26/02/2021 10:29:03 18 3
bbc
Its all very well to call for reduced taxes but are those same MPs going to call for tax evasion to be addressed.

Fact is we cannot afford lower taxes and the best way to help people is to Cap the cost of living so they have more disposable income to spend as they choose. I find it strange that this simple fact (cost of living) gets ignored in our media. It is hammering people.
65
26/02/2021 12:13:54 5 17
bbc
Which is precisely why taxes on alcohol should be raised. It is a luxury, not a necessity (despite many on this HYS claiming otherwise), so those willing to indulge themselves should understand and be responsible for their own actions.

They can't complain about the "cost of living" if they deliberately include alcohol as part of their lifestyle.
113
26/02/2021 13:12:50 2 0
bbc
If money is available to reduce tax Norman, it should be income tax where everyone, not just those that enjoy beer, can join in and spend on their favourite of choice.
5
26/02/2021 10:30:17 14 2
bbc
Not so sure about this, I think beer tax is one guarantee of income for HMG come the summer!

A lot of the population seems intent on getting ******** once the pubs re-open.
1
26/02/2021 10:22:28 9 3
bbc
The price of a pint in the pub is ridicculous, for pubs to survive they need to be able to charge less

Started homebrewing as a hobby in lockdown and can make a half decent batch for around 50p a pint, if i can do this myself then with bulk buying you would think that a brewery can make it for far less, why is it that by the time it gets to the pub it costs £4-5 a pint

Something is very wrong
6
26/02/2021 10:30:43 3 0
bbc
Tax
10
26/02/2021 10:34:14 2 1
bbc
I dont think its just tax, look at places like Brewdog, will serve you a pint for £2 more than anywhere else and they pay the same tax, places lke Brewdog are just using buzzwords like "Craft" in order to fleece people when there is no extra "Craft" to what they make, a few extra ingredients is not "Craft"

The Tax is too high though but in the current climate it would be hard to cut tax
7
26/02/2021 10:31:01 1 0
bbc
But if you really want to get hammered... google 'cold distillation' .... amazing what you can make with your freezer...
34
26/02/2021 11:17:39 1 0
bbc
Lovely. Just ordering six new freezers. ;-)
1
26/02/2021 10:22:28 9 3
bbc
The price of a pint in the pub is ridicculous, for pubs to survive they need to be able to charge less

Started homebrewing as a hobby in lockdown and can make a half decent batch for around 50p a pint, if i can do this myself then with bulk buying you would think that a brewery can make it for far less, why is it that by the time it gets to the pub it costs £4-5 a pint

Something is very wrong
8
26/02/2021 10:31:25 2 0
bbc
A fair observation; pub companies (not landlords) take the lions share I believe.
9
26/02/2021 10:31:26 8 6
bbc
Cut price of beer
More drinking
More alcohol abuse and injuries - come on give nhs a break
6
26/02/2021 10:30:43 3 0
bbc
Tax
10
26/02/2021 10:34:14 2 1
bbc
I dont think its just tax, look at places like Brewdog, will serve you a pint for £2 more than anywhere else and they pay the same tax, places lke Brewdog are just using buzzwords like "Craft" in order to fleece people when there is no extra "Craft" to what they make, a few extra ingredients is not "Craft"

The Tax is too high though but in the current climate it would be hard to cut tax
23
26/02/2021 10:56:07 0 3
bbc
You have a choice whether to purchase an expensive beer or not, and nope the tax is not too high imo.

we are already going to see a mad rush to get hammered as soon as pubs are open, bad for society if unruly behaviour then occurs, you want cheap beer go to the supermarket
29
26/02/2021 11:10:53 1 0
bbc
Could be worse. Could be "bespoke" beer.
Micropubs tend to manage to sell good beer cheaper. Pity theres none near me.
11
26/02/2021 10:34:46 4 3
bbc
Tax on units of alcohol has been added/increased over decades to dissuade people from drinking unhealthy and damaging amounts.

Now the idea is to reduce those taxes to encourage more drinking (which I appreciate is with a view to protect a sector of industry), and the change is suggested after a recent report saying alcohol-linked deaths have hit a new peak in lockdown?
66
26/02/2021 12:14:14 1 0
bbc
And that's during drinking at home.
12
26/02/2021 10:39:49 3 1
bbc
£300 billion borrowed to be payed for Covid, do MP's think that reducing taxes is going to help pay off this UK debt?

It's simple taxes will have to go up on everything to pay off this debt!
13
26/02/2021 10:41:31 21 1
bbc
I don't think cutting tax on beer is going to incentivise people who weren't planning on going to the pub to change their mind.
202
26/02/2021 18:31:29 3 11
bbc
It might if supermarket beer has it's tax increased.
14
26/02/2021 10:41:49 13 10
bbc
It comes as no surprise that Iain Duncan disorderly smith wants cheap booze down at the old snout and trough.
47
26/02/2021 11:38:53 10 23
bbc
It comes as no surprise that the Working Class Party doesn't want the Working Classes to partaaaayyy
15
26/02/2021 10:43:06 7 3
bbc
I think cheap beer just as we tentatively take the first steps out of a pandemic is a great idea! After all - what better thing when we should be observing social distancing with sober care than to provide cut-price alcohol so everyone can get absolutely leathered? The virus will be over the moon...
16
26/02/2021 10:43:13 30 7
bbc
Cut it for pubs and increase it for supermarkets.

Simple :)
68
26/02/2021 12:16:18 11 30
bbc
Increase it for both. Government should be helping to prevent more people becoming alcoholics, not encouraging them to be so.
17
26/02/2021 10:44:04 6 3
bbc
The price of pint of beer in a pub has soared through the roof in the last couple of decades, other than Wetherspoons the average person can't afford it. So yes lift some of the tax. Its gone through the roof in supermarkets as well ( its a myth that its cheap to buy there as well).

I don't care what David Piper says there is nothing wrong with a few drinks .....Christ we deserve it dont we !
35
26/02/2021 11:19:29 4 2
bbc
u say its a myth?: 24 cans of lager in a supermarket for £10? yet a pint of lager in most pubs is £3.30? Supermarkets should pay more tax on the beer they sell + pubs/clubs less. People who go to pubs/clubs are more likely to go for the company + to socialise. The people who buy cases of lager from supermarkets half the time end up drinking themselves to death at home lonely/sad or on a
bench
94
26/02/2021 12:40:52 1 0
bbc
"nothing wrong with a few drinks"

Tell that to the emergency services that have to waste their time combatting and having to take care of irresponsible anti-social drunks/alcoholics on a daily basis and they will laugh in your face. Because it is those irresponsible people that have the same mindset as you, that "there is nothing wrong with a couple of drinks" when the evidence proves otherwise.
100
26/02/2021 12:42:22 1 0
bbc
Not to mention the strain that Alcoholics alone put onto the NHS and on society as a whole.

You should be ashamed of yourself for encouraging it.
18
26/02/2021 10:49:18 2 4
bbc
Support pubs by cutting beer duty, say Conservative MPs....A brilliant Tory policy so lets get a Bill passed so we can all have a a few pints based on Happy Hour prices. Guaranteed the naysayers will be knocking this initiative. We all need a good knees up after thei pandemic.
19
26/02/2021 10:49:44 9 7
bbc
When a small tub of ice cream costs more double a bottle of beer, then you know somethings wrong.

Cheap beer keep the plebs happy so they notice less getting screwed in myriad of ways on indirect taxes etc.

Beer duty needs to go up not down.

The current level of taxation is unsustainable and has been for at least a decade hence £2,000,000,000,000,000+ debt
27
26/02/2021 11:05:45 8 2
bbc
I know which I would rather have and it is not a tub of ice cream
61
26/02/2021 12:06:48 1 1
bbc
Agreed. It needs to be taxed heavily, since alcoholics are the ones mostly responsible for anti-social behaviour/petty violence, so the industry that encourages it should be the one paying for the often preventable wasted time of the emergency services!
20
26/02/2021 10:50:31 12 1
bbc
A pub is and has always been a place of social cohesion, with greedy breweries and high rents, they have pushed out landlords, and with high duty/ TAX, it has become too expensive and people will purchase 4-5 cans as opposed to 1 in a pub and drink alone or in parks with friends.

Its almost like a deliberate plan to segregate people through taxation. Divide and conquer.
1
26/02/2021 10:22:28 9 3
bbc
The price of a pint in the pub is ridicculous, for pubs to survive they need to be able to charge less

Started homebrewing as a hobby in lockdown and can make a half decent batch for around 50p a pint, if i can do this myself then with bulk buying you would think that a brewery can make it for far less, why is it that by the time it gets to the pub it costs £4-5 a pint

Something is very wrong
21
26/02/2021 10:53:48 1 1
bbc
The brewery needs to pay staff - did you work out what the labour cost was on your home brew. It needs water (a lot) and that is charged, electricity, rent, rates, storage, transportation, Beer Duty (although smaller breweries pay less than the big boys) VAT.
A micro brewery will sell a barrel (72 pints, but you will only get around 68 out for real ale) for around £130INC VAT.
46
26/02/2021 11:38:05 0 1
bbc
Those things (with the excemption of the taxes which i would have to add on) would be paid for by the profit on each pint, so instead of factoring them into the price i would calculate how many i need to sell at a certain price in order to pay for them and once i have sold all i need to cover my costs i can make some profit for the business/myself
22
26/02/2021 10:55:00 4 1
bbc
Splendid.

You cannot beat a nice fruity IPA in a pub garden in the sun with a choice hand rolled ciggie.

If cheaper even better.
10
26/02/2021 10:34:14 2 1
bbc
I dont think its just tax, look at places like Brewdog, will serve you a pint for £2 more than anywhere else and they pay the same tax, places lke Brewdog are just using buzzwords like "Craft" in order to fleece people when there is no extra "Craft" to what they make, a few extra ingredients is not "Craft"

The Tax is too high though but in the current climate it would be hard to cut tax
23
26/02/2021 10:56:07 0 3
bbc
You have a choice whether to purchase an expensive beer or not, and nope the tax is not too high imo.

we are already going to see a mad rush to get hammered as soon as pubs are open, bad for society if unruly behaviour then occurs, you want cheap beer go to the supermarket
24
26/02/2021 10:56:54 9 0
bbc
a lot of pubs will not reopen in my area. some were closed for trade way before the virus issue. when you are on a tight budget you have to cut back. i like a pint the same as many others but i will buy from the supermarket . i dont drink booze that often i have more important things to fund. sad but true. it is a meeting place for many and i hope some can recover.
25
26/02/2021 10:58:36 1 2
bbc
"A group of Conservative MPs is calling for a reduction in the tax paid on beer in next week's Budget."

Hear, Hear
26
26/02/2021 11:00:53 2 8
bbc
Great news.
Unlike the Socialists who always want to see taxes rise
19
26/02/2021 10:49:44 9 7
bbc
When a small tub of ice cream costs more double a bottle of beer, then you know somethings wrong.

Cheap beer keep the plebs happy so they notice less getting screwed in myriad of ways on indirect taxes etc.

Beer duty needs to go up not down.

The current level of taxation is unsustainable and has been for at least a decade hence £2,000,000,000,000,000+ debt
27
26/02/2021 11:05:45 8 2
bbc
I know which I would rather have and it is not a tub of ice cream
107
26/02/2021 12:55:29 1 1
bbc
Of course you would... And that states a lot about you, and it is not postitive.
28
26/02/2021 11:10:08 47 10
bbc
Brilliant idea. Supermarkets have been knocking out cheap booze for yonks. The pub is where you can meet friends have a few drinks and socialise. The alcoholics will continue to buy their white lighting and cheap Polish lager and sit in the parks getting wasted. I need to get back to my local if it is still there. A good well run pub is the centre of a community and I am missing it badly
57
26/02/2021 12:03:16 10 62
bbc
You mean they are hubs of anti-social behaviour and and one of the biggest drains on the emergency services.

Our taxes shouldn't be wasted on being forced to combat the consequences of your extravagance.

It also says a LOT that one of the few things you are looking forward to when the lockdown restrictions are lifted is getting intoxicated.... What a sad existence.
10
26/02/2021 10:34:14 2 1
bbc
I dont think its just tax, look at places like Brewdog, will serve you a pint for £2 more than anywhere else and they pay the same tax, places lke Brewdog are just using buzzwords like "Craft" in order to fleece people when there is no extra "Craft" to what they make, a few extra ingredients is not "Craft"

The Tax is too high though but in the current climate it would be hard to cut tax
29
26/02/2021 11:10:53 1 0
bbc
Could be worse. Could be "bespoke" beer.
Micropubs tend to manage to sell good beer cheaper. Pity theres none near me.
30
26/02/2021 11:11:30 26 2
bbc
i agree social clubs and pubs are a;ways punished for selling responsibly. They are communities not just a place to drink. Supermarkets + shops should pay more duty on alcohol + pubs/clubs should pay less. Supermarkets have made a killing during lockdown + binge drinking at home has led to more drink related deaths. Pubs/clubs are about community drinking not sole drinking and should be supported
74
26/02/2021 12:25:21 5 29
bbc
You are joking if you think there is a significant difference between drinking alone and drinking with friends. The end result is still the same.

If anything pubs are worse and are NOT selling responsibly as they would gladly indulge in the further intoxication of their customers (even if it is evidently harmful to them), just for an extra few bucks.

Horrible repugnant businesses pubs are.
Hold up - it's persony person again. The pub hating fascist that believes we should all stay away from pubs because they don't like them Removed
143
26/02/2021 14:45:22 0 2
bbc
And what of the housebound such as myself? I live 150 yards from my village pub but cannot get there anymore. I therefore rely on my Asda beer deliveries.
31
26/02/2021 11:14:59 14 2
bbc
A cut in beer tax..... I'll drink to that!
101
26/02/2021 12:43:51 4 18
bbc
Poor decision if they go through with it. They should be raising the tax on Beer if anything, which I would drink water to that!
32
26/02/2021 11:03:24 1 4
bbc
Some Tory MP’s and many Labour, like a pint. UNLib UNDems preface wine I’m told.....and a wee dram up here, or half an half
33
26/02/2021 11:15:49 28 16
bbc
You can guarantee that Tories will reward their mates and they owe a massive amount to Spoons drinkers. Anyone that believes their lies is in need of more help than a tax break.
135
26/02/2021 14:20:12 8 17
bbc
Typical remoaner comment .. yawn
164
26/02/2021 15:32:13 1 6
bbc
You stay in your sad little left wing bubble, while the rest of us enjoy ourselves, and while we are at the pub we will drink to the health of the 80 SEAT MAJORITY.
193
26/02/2021 17:53:25 0 1
bbc
I voted brexit, vote tory yet would not unless it's the only pub in town venture in to a 'spoons' as you refer to it as and even then its bottles only as the pints served are atrocious.
7
26/02/2021 10:31:01 1 0
bbc
But if you really want to get hammered... google 'cold distillation' .... amazing what you can make with your freezer...
34
26/02/2021 11:17:39 1 0
bbc
Lovely. Just ordering six new freezers. ;-)
17
26/02/2021 10:44:04 6 3
bbc
The price of pint of beer in a pub has soared through the roof in the last couple of decades, other than Wetherspoons the average person can't afford it. So yes lift some of the tax. Its gone through the roof in supermarkets as well ( its a myth that its cheap to buy there as well).

I don't care what David Piper says there is nothing wrong with a few drinks .....Christ we deserve it dont we !
35
26/02/2021 11:19:29 4 2
bbc
u say its a myth?: 24 cans of lager in a supermarket for £10? yet a pint of lager in most pubs is £3.30? Supermarkets should pay more tax on the beer they sell + pubs/clubs less. People who go to pubs/clubs are more likely to go for the company + to socialise. The people who buy cases of lager from supermarkets half the time end up drinking themselves to death at home lonely/sad or on a
bench
42
26/02/2021 11:35:08 1 1
bbc
24 cans for £10 that's the rubbish stuff though( you'd be better off drinking the Thames than that rubbish).
I'm talking about reasonable bottles of beer and wine ( wine in particular has doubled in price).

Also most pubs sell a pint around £4 to £4.50 these days..the average pub does not knock out a pint of lager for £3.30
191
26/02/2021 17:39:25 0 0
bbc
Please tell me where you can get 24 cans you £10, even Aldi cheap brands are £2+ for 4. Agree though that wherever you are 4 cans in a shop is cheaper than one pint in a pub but the park bench doesn't come with service, sky sports and social contact which ultimately is what most people go to the pub for.
36
26/02/2021 11:23:19 2 7
bbc
It won't happen in Scotland. The Supreme Leader has an aversion to alcohol. Mind you, hopefully she will not be here for much longer!
43
26/02/2021 11:35:27 1 6
bbc
I'll drink to that
58
26/02/2021 12:03:45 1 0
bbc
Some people look as if they have nothing to look forward to after a hard days work at the salt-mine. ;-)
Will drinkers see the benefit? VAT paid (ultimately by customers) in pubs was reduced from 20% to 5% last year. But none of the pubs I visited reduced the price of a pint.

Also, if this is a temporary measure, I fear when it ends it will be used an excuse to hike prices by even bigger amounts. We all know when Chancellors increase duty by 1p per pint, it usually means a 10p minimum rise.
87
26/02/2021 12:37:13 17 1
bbc
You didn't see a reduction in the price of your pint because the 5% VAT introduced was only for food and non alcoholic drinks, that's the irony of not knowing what you are talking about.
144
26/02/2021 14:48:59 0 1
bbc
A lot of pubs can't afford to reduce the prices charged at the pump. The wholesale price paid by the pubs can be equivalent to retail prices with massive penalties for any establishment buying elsewhere.
38
26/02/2021 11:25:42 7 5
bbc
So we cut alcohol duties to ensure that the police, ambulance service & A&E Departments have to deal with even more alcohol related violence in every city/town centre every night of the week. Have the Tories binned their "Protect the NHS" policy
already?
51
NP
26/02/2021 11:54:56 1 0
bbc
They may not think that far after a pint.
39
26/02/2021 11:28:20 3 5
bbc
Not cheap enough in the Commons Bar ??

UK obsessed with Booze..
64
26/02/2021 12:11:36 2 6
bbc
And the French Portuguese Italians not
2
KRR
26/02/2021 10:23:08 13 11
bbc
Yup, there's some Top Tory Thinking, there.

When people emerge from a pandemic that has left many troubled with mental health problems, let's make it easier and cheaper for them to get hammered so's their problems can get even worse.
40
26/02/2021 11:31:30 9 21
bbc
It was guaranteed that the anti-Tories weren't going to like this proposal.

Never ruddy satisfied.
52
26/02/2021 11:56:06 3 3
bbc
It was guaranteed that sane people weren't going to like this proposal.
63
26/02/2021 12:10:44 2 3
bbc
Any minute now they blame it on Brexit. ;-)
85
26/02/2021 12:30:06 1 4
bbc
Anti Tories don;t drink in pubs. They stay at home writing rubbish on the internet. I rarely meet an Labour voters in pubs.
41
26/02/2021 11:32:04 6 10
bbc
Usual Lefty remoaner haters wanting to deny the working man a pint.
There's no wonder the red wall turned blue.
44
26/02/2021 11:36:32 3 21
bbc
Working class party don't want the Working class to party
55
26/02/2021 12:00:15 3 0
bbc
I realise that you and your ilk may struggle with this, such is your tunnel vision & puerile obsession, but this has nothing to do with "lefty remoaners". Dr Richard Piper, chief executive of Alcohol Change UK, is the person who is against a cut in beer duties for health reasons.

I disagree with him. And I'm a lefty remoaner.
67
26/02/2021 12:15:05 2 0
bbc
Over the last ten years that working class Tory government have stood by while thousands of pubs have closed to deny the working man a pint.
97
Pip
26/02/2021 12:41:16 3 0
bbc
I'm a 70+ year old Socialist Remainer and I love a pint, it's the Tory Temperance society on here that don't, and weren't most of them Brexiteers............?
35
26/02/2021 11:19:29 4 2
bbc
u say its a myth?: 24 cans of lager in a supermarket for £10? yet a pint of lager in most pubs is £3.30? Supermarkets should pay more tax on the beer they sell + pubs/clubs less. People who go to pubs/clubs are more likely to go for the company + to socialise. The people who buy cases of lager from supermarkets half the time end up drinking themselves to death at home lonely/sad or on a
bench
42
26/02/2021 11:35:08 1 1
bbc
24 cans for £10 that's the rubbish stuff though( you'd be better off drinking the Thames than that rubbish).
I'm talking about reasonable bottles of beer and wine ( wine in particular has doubled in price).

Also most pubs sell a pint around £4 to £4.50 these days..the average pub does not knock out a pint of lager for £3.30
36
26/02/2021 11:23:19 2 7
bbc
It won't happen in Scotland. The Supreme Leader has an aversion to alcohol. Mind you, hopefully she will not be here for much longer!
43
26/02/2021 11:35:27 1 6
bbc
I'll drink to that
98
26/02/2021 12:42:09 0 0
bbc
Move to Scotland first.
41
26/02/2021 11:32:04 6 10
bbc
Usual Lefty remoaner haters wanting to deny the working man a pint.
There's no wonder the red wall turned blue.
44
26/02/2021 11:36:32 3 21
bbc
Working class party don't want the Working class to party
95
26/02/2021 12:40:55 2 0
bbc
I thought we were a classless society ?
45
26/02/2021 11:36:54 2 3
bbc
Midweek eat out to help out would be a far better subsidy.

Weekends will take care of themselves....come up with an incentive to get bums on seats Mon-Thurs.
60
26/02/2021 12:06:39 2 2
bbc
It is up to the pubs come up with an incentive to get bums on seats Mon-Thurs not the gov't or taxpayer's job
21
26/02/2021 10:53:48 1 1
bbc
The brewery needs to pay staff - did you work out what the labour cost was on your home brew. It needs water (a lot) and that is charged, electricity, rent, rates, storage, transportation, Beer Duty (although smaller breweries pay less than the big boys) VAT.
A micro brewery will sell a barrel (72 pints, but you will only get around 68 out for real ale) for around £130INC VAT.
46
26/02/2021 11:38:05 0 1
bbc
Those things (with the excemption of the taxes which i would have to add on) would be paid for by the profit on each pint, so instead of factoring them into the price i would calculate how many i need to sell at a certain price in order to pay for them and once i have sold all i need to cover my costs i can make some profit for the business/myself
14
26/02/2021 10:41:49 13 10
bbc
It comes as no surprise that Iain Duncan disorderly smith wants cheap booze down at the old snout and trough.
47
26/02/2021 11:38:53 10 23
bbc
It comes as no surprise that the Working Class Party doesn't want the Working Classes to partaaaayyy
59
26/02/2021 12:04:53 4 2
bbc
Could you point out where Labour has criticised this initiative in the above article?

Take all the time you need.

Comical.
36
26/02/2021 11:23:19 2 7
bbc
It won't happen in Scotland. The Supreme Leader has an aversion to alcohol. Mind you, hopefully she will not be here for much longer!
49
26/02/2021 11:50:47 12 2
bbc
Less Boozing and more making things for exporting, that £ is way over the top chancellor..
50
NP
26/02/2021 11:53:51 4 3
bbc
I agree but some will not.
110
26/02/2021 13:02:20 3 0
bbc
Convincing people to "Lessen their boozing" won't happen unless the (or a) government takes a hard line on alcohol usage.

It is too addictive of a substance to convince people by education alone.
49
26/02/2021 11:50:47 12 2
bbc
Less Boozing and more making things for exporting, that £ is way over the top chancellor..
50
NP
26/02/2021 11:53:51 4 3
bbc
I agree but some will not.
86
26/02/2021 12:36:39 4 0
bbc
Half the Nation is on the Drink Drip..
38
26/02/2021 11:25:42 7 5
bbc
So we cut alcohol duties to ensure that the police, ambulance service & A&E Departments have to deal with even more alcohol related violence in every city/town centre every night of the week. Have the Tories binned their "Protect the NHS" policy
already?
51
NP
26/02/2021 11:54:56 1 0
bbc
They may not think that far after a pint.
40
26/02/2021 11:31:30 9 21
bbc
It was guaranteed that the anti-Tories weren't going to like this proposal.

Never ruddy satisfied.
52
26/02/2021 11:56:06 3 3
bbc
It was guaranteed that sane people weren't going to like this proposal.
53
NP
26/02/2021 11:58:50 3 3
bbc
Humm so increase corporation tax to subsidize booze!! Blimey. Has this nation gone to no brainers. Build manufacturing capabilities, increase industrial throughput, attract FDIs, give some relief to next generation skilled students to bring the country back on feet and place it deserve.

I am seriously surprise of it and working class call their support to such monstrosity.
72
26/02/2021 12:19:47 1 3
bbc
No way is it 'subsidising booze' - quite the reverse - boozers are subsidising other tax payers. If they're car drivers too (hopefully not at the same time, of course), they're really being taken for a ride by the Inland Revenue.
54
26/02/2021 11:54:16 3 4
bbc
Drinking beer not too good for your health but after all the issue with covid think it will be something to savour and all the better if less tax.

Such a shame that an HYS on a small beer article yesterday such delicious news from Scotland and any article with a Salmond or a sturgeon needs an HYS
41
26/02/2021 11:32:04 6 10
bbc
Usual Lefty remoaner haters wanting to deny the working man a pint.
There's no wonder the red wall turned blue.
55
26/02/2021 12:00:15 3 0
bbc
I realise that you and your ilk may struggle with this, such is your tunnel vision & puerile obsession, but this has nothing to do with "lefty remoaners". Dr Richard Piper, chief executive of Alcohol Change UK, is the person who is against a cut in beer duties for health reasons.

I disagree with him. And I'm a lefty remoaner.
56
26/02/2021 12:02:03 5 2
bbc
During my drinking life nine pubs in the town centre have closed but only one new pub as open and you can guess who that was that's right spoons The days when you can stand at the bar and have a pint and a fag with yours mates are over. It as nothing to do with the pandemic pubs were closing every week before Covis struck. Why should the taxpayer pay out to save pubs that will close any way
71
26/02/2021 12:19:03 3 2
bbc
Why should the taxpayer pay out to save holiday firms and airlines who won't survive much longer any way.
195
26/02/2021 18:03:42 0 0
bbc
Sentiment appreciated but having had to read your post 3 times to understand it suggest you stay out of said spoons or ASDA for a bit.
28
26/02/2021 11:10:08 47 10
bbc
Brilliant idea. Supermarkets have been knocking out cheap booze for yonks. The pub is where you can meet friends have a few drinks and socialise. The alcoholics will continue to buy their white lighting and cheap Polish lager and sit in the parks getting wasted. I need to get back to my local if it is still there. A good well run pub is the centre of a community and I am missing it badly
57
26/02/2021 12:03:16 10 62
bbc
You mean they are hubs of anti-social behaviour and and one of the biggest drains on the emergency services.

Our taxes shouldn't be wasted on being forced to combat the consequences of your extravagance.

It also says a LOT that one of the few things you are looking forward to when the lockdown restrictions are lifted is getting intoxicated.... What a sad existence.
83
26/02/2021 12:27:50 19 3
bbc
I am guessing that either you have never been in a pub, or you live on a really rough estate somewhere. Because I haven't seen any trouble in a pub for about 30 years, and I pop in most days during normal times.
I sure you live a sad existence. Removed
122
26/02/2021 13:48:09 12 3
bbc
You're the sad and bitter one! Person above probably like me goes to the pub once / twice a week at most with friends and chats, with only 3 drinks consumed all evening! Whilst most people getting bladdered are at home on cheap supermarket drinks, at double or treble servings at a time! Nothing said about those from sad and bitter anti-alcohol brigade. The pubs I go to never have trouble!
127
26/02/2021 14:05:51 6 2
bbc
Sound like you should move north to a civilised bit of the U.K. I just don’t recognise your comment in terms of my locals.
180
26/02/2021 16:31:25 0 1
bbc
Its being so cheerful see's you through, innit fam. lol
I read down the comments and all I see are your meaningless comments either you have a problem (obviously not a drink problem) but maybe you do with the endless comments or you are bored and have nothing better to do so I would suggest get a drink and calm the f**k down. Your social skills are drain on society and you need help and do us all a favour and do it quickly. Removed
36
26/02/2021 11:23:19 2 7
bbc
It won't happen in Scotland. The Supreme Leader has an aversion to alcohol. Mind you, hopefully she will not be here for much longer!
58
26/02/2021 12:03:45 1 0
bbc
Some people look as if they have nothing to look forward to after a hard days work at the salt-mine. ;-)
47
26/02/2021 11:38:53 10 23
bbc
It comes as no surprise that the Working Class Party doesn't want the Working Classes to partaaaayyy
59
26/02/2021 12:04:53 4 2
bbc
Could you point out where Labour has criticised this initiative in the above article?

Take all the time you need.

Comical.
73
26/02/2021 12:22:59 2 17
bbc
Could you point out where my post insists that Labour has criticised this initiative in the above article?

Take all the time you need.....
45
26/02/2021 11:36:54 2 3
bbc
Midweek eat out to help out would be a far better subsidy.

Weekends will take care of themselves....come up with an incentive to get bums on seats Mon-Thurs.
60
26/02/2021 12:06:39 2 2
bbc
It is up to the pubs come up with an incentive to get bums on seats Mon-Thurs not the gov't or taxpayer's job
19
26/02/2021 10:49:44 9 7
bbc
When a small tub of ice cream costs more double a bottle of beer, then you know somethings wrong.

Cheap beer keep the plebs happy so they notice less getting screwed in myriad of ways on indirect taxes etc.

Beer duty needs to go up not down.

The current level of taxation is unsustainable and has been for at least a decade hence £2,000,000,000,000,000+ debt
61
26/02/2021 12:06:48 1 1
bbc
Agreed. It needs to be taxed heavily, since alcoholics are the ones mostly responsible for anti-social behaviour/petty violence, so the industry that encourages it should be the one paying for the often preventable wasted time of the emergency services!
62
26/02/2021 12:10:06 4 5
bbc
I do hope that this initiative is adopted by the Treasury.

Our pubs have taken a huge hit during this pandemic and many are at the heart of our communities. For them to be able to attract more customers with a cheaper pint will help those who survive to thrive post-lockdown.

Beer sales have been cornered by the supermarkets. It's far more convivial & social to drink a pint with mates in the pub.
88
Pip
26/02/2021 12:37:25 2 1
bbc
My locals beer prices soared last year by 20% so I won't hold my breath that it will be any cheaper when they open this time round.

4 x 500ml cans of 5% Real Ale from local Supermarket for the price of one pub pint, sorry to see the demise of, but you've got to be realistic.........?
40
26/02/2021 11:31:30 9 21
bbc
It was guaranteed that the anti-Tories weren't going to like this proposal.

Never ruddy satisfied.
63
26/02/2021 12:10:44 2 3
bbc
Any minute now they blame it on Brexit. ;-)
39
26/02/2021 11:28:20 3 5
bbc
Not cheap enough in the Commons Bar ??

UK obsessed with Booze..
64
26/02/2021 12:11:36 2 6
bbc
And the French Portuguese Italians not
4
26/02/2021 10:29:03 18 3
bbc
Its all very well to call for reduced taxes but are those same MPs going to call for tax evasion to be addressed.

Fact is we cannot afford lower taxes and the best way to help people is to Cap the cost of living so they have more disposable income to spend as they choose. I find it strange that this simple fact (cost of living) gets ignored in our media. It is hammering people.
65
26/02/2021 12:13:54 5 17
bbc
Which is precisely why taxes on alcohol should be raised. It is a luxury, not a necessity (despite many on this HYS claiming otherwise), so those willing to indulge themselves should understand and be responsible for their own actions.

They can't complain about the "cost of living" if they deliberately include alcohol as part of their lifestyle.
yes...you are definitely sad. Removed
187
26/02/2021 16:46:46 0 1
bbc
You're not really a persony kind of person are you.
11
26/02/2021 10:34:46 4 3
bbc
Tax on units of alcohol has been added/increased over decades to dissuade people from drinking unhealthy and damaging amounts.

Now the idea is to reduce those taxes to encourage more drinking (which I appreciate is with a view to protect a sector of industry), and the change is suggested after a recent report saying alcohol-linked deaths have hit a new peak in lockdown?
66
26/02/2021 12:14:14 1 0
bbc
And that's during drinking at home.
41
26/02/2021 11:32:04 6 10
bbc
Usual Lefty remoaner haters wanting to deny the working man a pint.
There's no wonder the red wall turned blue.
67
26/02/2021 12:15:05 2 0
bbc
Over the last ten years that working class Tory government have stood by while thousands of pubs have closed to deny the working man a pint.
16
26/02/2021 10:43:13 30 7
bbc
Cut it for pubs and increase it for supermarkets.

Simple :)
68
26/02/2021 12:16:18 11 30
bbc
Increase it for both. Government should be helping to prevent more people becoming alcoholics, not encouraging them to be so.
96
26/02/2021 12:41:07 3 3
bbc
lets increase tax on you ....see if you like it ten....you sad person
108
26/02/2021 12:58:04 3 2
bbc
Great idea ... let's penalise the majority for the minority.

While we're at it why not double the price of all foodstuff ... that'll help all those obese people.
69
26/02/2021 12:16:41 11 0
bbc
These 'experts' just can't learn. Look at Italy - beer and wine a fraction of what it costs here, yet a much lower rate of alcohol related deaths (less that 1000 alcohol related liver disease, against 7,700 UK). For the gov., it's just revenue, and very little chance of it being reduced with the last year's gross overspend. Like petrol, they can claim it's good for us, but we're not that stupid.
70
26/02/2021 12:17:00 2 0
bbc
Level the playing field? Mr Piper is having a laugh? The price difference is hugh . Even in Scotland with minimum pricing and a ban on alcohol promotions , which put paid to cheap supermarket booze the pubs still were shutting.
56
26/02/2021 12:02:03 5 2
bbc
During my drinking life nine pubs in the town centre have closed but only one new pub as open and you can guess who that was that's right spoons The days when you can stand at the bar and have a pint and a fag with yours mates are over. It as nothing to do with the pandemic pubs were closing every week before Covis struck. Why should the taxpayer pay out to save pubs that will close any way
71
26/02/2021 12:19:03 3 2
bbc
Why should the taxpayer pay out to save holiday firms and airlines who won't survive much longer any way.
53
NP
26/02/2021 11:58:50 3 3
bbc
Humm so increase corporation tax to subsidize booze!! Blimey. Has this nation gone to no brainers. Build manufacturing capabilities, increase industrial throughput, attract FDIs, give some relief to next generation skilled students to bring the country back on feet and place it deserve.

I am seriously surprise of it and working class call their support to such monstrosity.
72
26/02/2021 12:19:47 1 3
bbc
No way is it 'subsidising booze' - quite the reverse - boozers are subsidising other tax payers. If they're car drivers too (hopefully not at the same time, of course), they're really being taken for a ride by the Inland Revenue.
181
NP
26/02/2021 16:31:27 0 0
bbc
More money spent of public services in terms of health, policing, social support because of addictions and night life.
59
26/02/2021 12:04:53 4 2
bbc
Could you point out where Labour has criticised this initiative in the above article?

Take all the time you need.

Comical.
73
26/02/2021 12:22:59 2 17
bbc
Could you point out where my post insists that Labour has criticised this initiative in the above article?

Take all the time you need.....
75
26/02/2021 12:26:48 4 2
bbc
Above. Don't you even know what you post?
30
26/02/2021 11:11:30 26 2
bbc
i agree social clubs and pubs are a;ways punished for selling responsibly. They are communities not just a place to drink. Supermarkets + shops should pay more duty on alcohol + pubs/clubs should pay less. Supermarkets have made a killing during lockdown + binge drinking at home has led to more drink related deaths. Pubs/clubs are about community drinking not sole drinking and should be supported
74
26/02/2021 12:25:21 5 29
bbc
You are joking if you think there is a significant difference between drinking alone and drinking with friends. The end result is still the same.

If anything pubs are worse and are NOT selling responsibly as they would gladly indulge in the further intoxication of their customers (even if it is evidently harmful to them), just for an extra few bucks.

Horrible repugnant businesses pubs are.
Quite frankly I'm glad a sad repugnant person like you doesn't visit the pub! Removed
132
26/02/2021 14:14:49 3 0
bbc
Some people are a bit repugnant as well...
183
26/02/2021 16:37:03 0 1
bbc
"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat its mistakes."

Prohibition ring any bells?
73
26/02/2021 12:22:59 2 17
bbc
Could you point out where my post insists that Labour has criticised this initiative in the above article?

Take all the time you need.....
75
26/02/2021 12:26:48 4 2
bbc
Above. Don't you even know what you post?
148
26/02/2021 15:00:22 1 13
bbc
I made no reference to the article

Don't you even know what inventions you attributed to my post?
76
26/02/2021 12:27:30 4 8
bbc
Tax cut for local, British made beer.

The overpriced imported stuff can have a tax rise.

Buy British.
92
26/02/2021 12:38:58 2 4
bbc
Have you tasted it ?
118
26/02/2021 13:27:58 1 0
bbc
Just means the lager is "brewed" in the UK - which makes it poorer quality. Give me real Bavarian beer over an ersatz copy made in Burton-on-Trent any day of the week (though my favourite pub brew is Gales - a real English beer)
77
26/02/2021 12:28:30 5 2
bbc
The Government is trying to stop people gathering indoors in groups. So no, you don't get cheaper beer.
78
26/02/2021 12:28:58 4 0
bbc
Isn't it the breweries that have historically squeezed pub owner profits? What's stopping them profiting the difference.

If a tax cut is to be given, make sure it goes to the right people.
79
26/02/2021 12:30:01 3 1
bbc
If it helps, just think of the proposed rise in alcohol duty as your donation to a good cause, such as the NHS.
80
26/02/2021 12:26:40 2 2
bbc
Now that is a policy I can support!
90
26/02/2021 12:38:20 1 2
bbc
alky
81
26/02/2021 12:32:09 2 2
bbc
VOTE FOR US
82
26/02/2021 12:34:49 10 4
bbc
Duty is a fixed amount based an the strength of the beer
The same for pub and supermarket
55p a pint
Cut it to zero and price of pint in pub goes from £4.55 to £4
Bishops Finger in Aldi goes from £1.25 to 70p!
Better cut VAT to Zero as this is added to the sale price
£4.50 pub goes to £3.60 and aldi goes to £1.05

Another Tory that doesn't know what he's talking about but wants to look popular
116
26/02/2021 13:24:50 3 4
bbc
minimum pricing in supermarkets is a much better solution than dropping duty in pubs
198
26/02/2021 18:24:46 0 0
bbc
You could just say 'Tories' but the problem is they fully understand the consequences of their actions - such as giving contracts to friends, relatives and colleagues without offering them for tender, even if these characters have little or no knowledge as to the requirements of the contracts!
57
26/02/2021 12:03:16 10 62
bbc
You mean they are hubs of anti-social behaviour and and one of the biggest drains on the emergency services.

Our taxes shouldn't be wasted on being forced to combat the consequences of your extravagance.

It also says a LOT that one of the few things you are looking forward to when the lockdown restrictions are lifted is getting intoxicated.... What a sad existence.
83
26/02/2021 12:27:50 19 3
bbc
I am guessing that either you have never been in a pub, or you live on a really rough estate somewhere. Because I haven't seen any trouble in a pub for about 30 years, and I pop in most days during normal times.
104
26/02/2021 12:47:47 4 11
bbc
Your personal experience doesn't make what I stated any less true. Of course and as usual from you, incapable of viewing the wider picture at large.
2
KRR
26/02/2021 10:23:08 13 11
bbc
Yup, there's some Top Tory Thinking, there.

When people emerge from a pandemic that has left many troubled with mental health problems, let's make it easier and cheaper for them to get hammered so's their problems can get even worse.
84
26/02/2021 12:29:19 2 1
bbc
Alcoholics drink at home, not in the pub. Pub landlords don't like drunkenness, because it can cause them to lose their licence, and their livelihood.
40
26/02/2021 11:31:30 9 21
bbc
It was guaranteed that the anti-Tories weren't going to like this proposal.

Never ruddy satisfied.
85
26/02/2021 12:30:06 1 4
bbc
Anti Tories don;t drink in pubs. They stay at home writing rubbish on the internet. I rarely meet an Labour voters in pubs.
103
26/02/2021 12:45:31 3 1
bbc
I would imagine they avoid you if you're determined to pigeonhole your fellow pubgoers into what party they vote for.
163
26/02/2021 15:35:46 2 0
bbc
So you are an Anti-Tory then? Strange given you have been pandering non-stop, almost worshipping the Tories consistently on this HYS, writing the such rubbish that you are apparently criticizing.

Hypocrite.
50
NP
26/02/2021 11:53:51 4 3
bbc
I agree but some will not.
86
26/02/2021 12:36:39 4 0
bbc
Half the Nation is on the Drink Drip..
Will drinkers see the benefit? VAT paid (ultimately by customers) in pubs was reduced from 20% to 5% last year. But none of the pubs I visited reduced the price of a pint.

Also, if this is a temporary measure, I fear when it ends it will be used an excuse to hike prices by even bigger amounts. We all know when Chancellors increase duty by 1p per pint, it usually means a 10p minimum rise.
87
26/02/2021 12:37:13 17 1
bbc
You didn't see a reduction in the price of your pint because the 5% VAT introduced was only for food and non alcoholic drinks, that's the irony of not knowing what you are talking about.
106
26/02/2021 12:54:27 1 1
bbc
Well said ShaunPH
194
26/02/2021 17:58:18 0 0
bbc
In fairness to the local establishment's which I would much prefer to visit the VAT reduction went towards a small business surviving rather the profiteering, which I don't have a problem with as they have been shafted rightly or wrongly for a year now.
62
26/02/2021 12:10:06 4 5
bbc
I do hope that this initiative is adopted by the Treasury.

Our pubs have taken a huge hit during this pandemic and many are at the heart of our communities. For them to be able to attract more customers with a cheaper pint will help those who survive to thrive post-lockdown.

Beer sales have been cornered by the supermarkets. It's far more convivial & social to drink a pint with mates in the pub.
88
Pip
26/02/2021 12:37:25 2 1
bbc
My locals beer prices soared last year by 20% so I won't hold my breath that it will be any cheaper when they open this time round.

4 x 500ml cans of 5% Real Ale from local Supermarket for the price of one pub pint, sorry to see the demise of, but you've got to be realistic.........?
117
26/02/2021 13:26:40 1 0
bbc
& sit home alone & drink them. There are many more people living alone these days. Being able to meet others on neutral ground & share your troubles ("a trouble shared is a trouble halved") alleviates a lot of mental health issues.
89
26/02/2021 12:37:58 8 2
bbc
Hoi polloi like beer - and murdoch privides their chip-paper. Populists strike again.

Commons is subsidised by the willing public already.
80
26/02/2021 12:26:40 2 2
bbc
Now that is a policy I can support!
90
26/02/2021 12:38:20 1 2
bbc
alky
74
26/02/2021 12:25:21 5 29
bbc
You are joking if you think there is a significant difference between drinking alone and drinking with friends. The end result is still the same.

If anything pubs are worse and are NOT selling responsibly as they would gladly indulge in the further intoxication of their customers (even if it is evidently harmful to them), just for an extra few bucks.

Horrible repugnant businesses pubs are.
Quite frankly I'm glad a sad repugnant person like you doesn't visit the pub! Removed
76
26/02/2021 12:27:30 4 8
bbc
Tax cut for local, British made beer.

The overpriced imported stuff can have a tax rise.

Buy British.
92
26/02/2021 12:38:58 2 4
bbc
Have you tasted it ?
119
26/02/2021 13:34:04 1 0
bbc
Have you? Do you know the difference between British ALE & foreign LAGERS? British ale is unique & comes in many tastes, colours & strenghs & is some of the best in the world. I guess you're young & a lager drinker.
171
26/02/2021 16:06:05 0 0
bbc
Yes, and it's pretty awful. I'll stick to British real ale thanks.
57
26/02/2021 12:03:16 10 62
bbc
You mean they are hubs of anti-social behaviour and and one of the biggest drains on the emergency services.

Our taxes shouldn't be wasted on being forced to combat the consequences of your extravagance.

It also says a LOT that one of the few things you are looking forward to when the lockdown restrictions are lifted is getting intoxicated.... What a sad existence.
I sure you live a sad existence. Removed
17
26/02/2021 10:44:04 6 3
bbc
The price of pint of beer in a pub has soared through the roof in the last couple of decades, other than Wetherspoons the average person can't afford it. So yes lift some of the tax. Its gone through the roof in supermarkets as well ( its a myth that its cheap to buy there as well).

I don't care what David Piper says there is nothing wrong with a few drinks .....Christ we deserve it dont we !
94
26/02/2021 12:40:52 1 0
bbc
"nothing wrong with a few drinks"

Tell that to the emergency services that have to waste their time combatting and having to take care of irresponsible anti-social drunks/alcoholics on a daily basis and they will laugh in your face. Because it is those irresponsible people that have the same mindset as you, that "there is nothing wrong with a couple of drinks" when the evidence proves otherwise.
44
26/02/2021 11:36:32 3 21
bbc
Working class party don't want the Working class to party
95
26/02/2021 12:40:55 2 0
bbc
I thought we were a classless society ?
68
26/02/2021 12:16:18 11 30
bbc
Increase it for both. Government should be helping to prevent more people becoming alcoholics, not encouraging them to be so.
96
26/02/2021 12:41:07 3 3
bbc
lets increase tax on you ....see if you like it ten....you sad person
105
26/02/2021 12:52:21 3 4
bbc
Wouldn't mind that so much if it was being spent on our essential services of the country. But the fact that a portion of the taxes I am paying is being wasted on having to combat the consequences of your indulgences is a disgrace.

It is people like you that complain that the "police don't do anything", when in reality they are having to deal with anti-social drunks a lot of the time at night.
162
26/02/2021 15:30:25 1 1
bbc
Don't feed the troll! HYS is a lot better if we just ignore them.
41
26/02/2021 11:32:04 6 10
bbc
Usual Lefty remoaner haters wanting to deny the working man a pint.
There's no wonder the red wall turned blue.
97
Pip
26/02/2021 12:41:16 3 0
bbc
I'm a 70+ year old Socialist Remainer and I love a pint, it's the Tory Temperance society on here that don't, and weren't most of them Brexiteers............?
43
26/02/2021 11:35:27 1 6
bbc
I'll drink to that
98
26/02/2021 12:42:09 0 0
bbc
Move to Scotland first.
65
26/02/2021 12:13:54 5 17
bbc
Which is precisely why taxes on alcohol should be raised. It is a luxury, not a necessity (despite many on this HYS claiming otherwise), so those willing to indulge themselves should understand and be responsible for their own actions.

They can't complain about the "cost of living" if they deliberately include alcohol as part of their lifestyle.
yes...you are definitely sad. Removed
17
26/02/2021 10:44:04 6 3
bbc
The price of pint of beer in a pub has soared through the roof in the last couple of decades, other than Wetherspoons the average person can't afford it. So yes lift some of the tax. Its gone through the roof in supermarkets as well ( its a myth that its cheap to buy there as well).

I don't care what David Piper says there is nothing wrong with a few drinks .....Christ we deserve it dont we !
100
26/02/2021 12:42:22 1 0
bbc
Not to mention the strain that Alcoholics alone put onto the NHS and on society as a whole.

You should be ashamed of yourself for encouraging it.