University tuition fees frozen at £9,250 for a year
21/01/2021 | news | education | 780
Tuition fees in England are being frozen for another year and ministers outline plans to reform post-16 education.
1
21/01/2021 11:18:17 23 26
bbc
The best route to success in this country is to be born rich, entitled and privileged and donate money to the Nasty Party.
9
21/01/2021 11:22:27 20 3
bbc
Utter rubbish. I wasn't born rich, entitled or privileged. I left school at 16 with no qualifications and all in all had a good life and career.
28
21/01/2021 11:28:52 1 0
bbc
this is not wrong

however, it's your own success, not the success of the country or the general population
218
21/01/2021 13:13:13 2 0
bbc
Most people obtain success, with a combination of hard work, luck, and circumstances beyond their control.
Make the most of what you have, and work on what you don't.
And never fall into the trap of blaming the government of the day for your own shortcomings.
It will only sap your energy.
695
21/01/2021 18:06:20 0 0
bbc
Bitter.
2
21/01/2021 11:18:42 196 10
bbc
Yay, someone figured it out at last. Not everyone needs or should go to Uni.
15
21/01/2021 11:24:52 84 7
bbc
Quite true - 50% of people don't need to go to uni either.
68
21/01/2021 11:35:50 17 2
bbc
Thats true, but a kids background shouldn't be a barrier either if they have the talent, resolve and will to go for a degree or deny a second chance for the older late developers.

The Btech route should be expanded. The Btech graduates quite often have a greater practical understanding of the subject than A level Students.
72
21/01/2021 11:34:48 16 7
bbc
Problem is most teachers have little experience of life outside teaching, so all they understand is academic routes, thus they try and encourage everyone to go that way. Most teachers wouldn't know one end of a spanner from the other!
143
Bob
21/01/2021 12:04:39 13 2
bbc
I believe it was Mr Blair who thought everyone should and get a sky-high target for admissions.

The funny thing is whenever you see candid interviews of high-flyers they almost always have something in common - drive to succeed and a lack of formal qualifications.
240
ljs
21/01/2021 13:24:36 9 0
bbc
80% of people DO NOT NEED to go to University.
250
21/01/2021 13:26:52 9 1
bbc
But we do need research scientists, engineers and inventors for our economy, and doctors and nurses for our NHS. University is the place that provides all of these.

And regardless of the sour grapes anti-university lot, you'll be far better off with a STEM degree than without one.

Send the smart people to university to do technical degrees, regardless of their social background.
266
21/01/2021 13:31:26 3 0
bbc
Agree but we shouldn't decry those who do. Personal choice to go and have the debt. Maybe try and be a little more unifying. It's the new way
283
21/01/2021 13:36:39 1 1
bbc
True, but we NEED doctors.
How many are put of with the 80k+ debt to be one?
650
21/01/2021 16:54:05 1 0
bbc
"Yay, someone figured it out at last. Not everyone needs or should go to Uni."

===

We can thank Tony Blair for the proliferation and devaluation of degrees.

My sister got a degree in the history of European art. Could only get work as a waitress. She eventually went to night school to learn computer programming, which DID get her a decent job.
653
stu
21/01/2021 16:59:16 1 0
bbc
Generally speaking it should be a fairly even split between university and vocation. but in the last, what, 20 years? it's been everyone heading to university as 'par for the course' to get drunk, do drugs, and not get a job at the end of it.

I will advise my boys to learn a skill instead and get a proper job.

mind you if we all do that for a while, soon university will be a valuable path again
3
21/01/2021 11:19:23 4 23
bbc
Uk racing to the bottom..now they don't want to educated kids
26
21/01/2021 11:27:56 5 1
bbc
As soon as Blair let anyone go to Uni the race to the bottom was over, it was a stupid idea to let all kids believe they were Uni material. Some are better off going a tradesman route because otherwise all they'll end up with is debt and no job after 3/5 years.
66
21/01/2021 11:35:36 0 0
bbc
It’s the right sort of education that is important - whether academic or practical.

And what does “they don't want to educated kids” mean anyway?
4
21/01/2021 11:19:51 82 27
bbc
University is a complete waste of money now, it’s only worth going if your profession requires it like a doctor for example. I didn’t go so have no debt and earn more than my friends who did go.
20
21/01/2021 11:26:45 51 34
bbc
That's in your case and therefore subjective to you. Stats show time after time, those who go to university earn more, esp. in medicine, science, technology, engineering, maths, business and economics...
259
21/01/2021 13:30:18 4 0
bbc
Try getting a decent wage in the science industries without a degree level education. Not impossible, but really difficult! In my 30 year experience in the chemicals' industry, most who come in as technicians with BTEC, or A levels eventually go through industry supported degrees to make headway. Otherwise their options are limited.
5
21/01/2021 11:20:53 7 12
bbc
Looking forward to the Media Studies, Tony Blair, useless degrees comments. Strange thing is most of them will be from those who weren't able to get a degree.......
29
21/01/2021 11:29:03 2 2
bbc
You believe everyone wanted or needed a degree, you're wrong.
82
21/01/2021 11:39:56 1 0
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...especially sneering at Media Studies whilst being addicted to their mobile phones and Netflix etc.
6
21/01/2021 11:21:32 222 9
bbc
Universities degree 'not the only route to success'

---

Well, they are for University Vice Chancellors, who have seen their salaries increase to obscene amounts in recent years.

That's what your £9,000 a year fees are paying for.
84
21/01/2021 11:41:25 47 28
bbc
Not just VC's, the cost of administering degrees has rocketed - it's Parkinson's Law, administration costs grow to match the budget allocated.

Imagine paying staff for 20% of their time to do research with out checks to ensure it is either done, useful of cost effective!

Teaching only contracts should be the norm not the exception.
154
21/01/2021 12:11:09 7 1
bbc
I do believe there have been very successful bank robbers and drug cartel operators who didn't go to university. Sarcasm aside, a degree is just a piece of paper that doesn't guarantee success, Marcus Rashford didn't go to Uni and is on £10M a year which is thrice the Unilever's CEO who's package is £3.7M.
225
21/01/2021 13:18:32 9 10
bbc
Utter tosh you talk. Their salaries, given the size and complexity of the organisations they run, pale into insignificance compared to similar roles in the private sector. That's what you pay for every time you buy something!
229
21/01/2021 13:20:04 12 1
bbc
Not quite, that's what foreign student fees are paying for. Universities compete damn hard to get the foreign cash.
7
21/01/2021 11:21:42 4 0
bbc
These day even having a degree is no guarantee of employment and success.
8
21/01/2021 11:22:25 89 2
bbc
These days even having a degree is no guarantee of employment and success.
88
21/01/2021 11:43:13 61 8
bbc
True but I don't know where I'd be without mine (in a factory like my Dad?)

I am pretty sure that having a masters got me to interviews that were to prove crucial career steps.

No one walks into a job these days, especially not raw graduates, but sometimes qualifications can prove useful.
302
21/01/2021 13:44:46 0 6
bbc
Having the degree I have is. I can walk from job to job if I want to, with a salary range of £40-70K plus.

What exactly is a "degree"? You are comparing apples and oranges if you try to define it, degress are so diverse.

Clearly you don't understand what you are talking about.
1
21/01/2021 11:18:17 23 26
bbc
The best route to success in this country is to be born rich, entitled and privileged and donate money to the Nasty Party.
9
21/01/2021 11:22:27 20 3
bbc
Utter rubbish. I wasn't born rich, entitled or privileged. I left school at 16 with no qualifications and all in all had a good life and career.
40
21/01/2021 11:31:03 5 3
bbc
He didn't say the only route, he said the best route.
78
21/01/2021 11:38:54 2 3
bbc
I said the "best route". Did you learn verbal comprehension skills at school?
94
21/01/2021 11:44:21 1 1
bbc
Lucky then.
608
21/01/2021 16:13:31 0 0
bbc
Yes but bank robbery is against the law
10
21/01/2021 11:22:44 14 1
bbc
"But groups representing the further education (FE) sector say colleges must be properly funded to deliver." Maybe these establishments, dedicated to training people, should seek training in how to manage their finances. My last job was in a college. Colleagues who had been there years told me that there used to be one Principal in charge. When I was there, 18 people comprised "The Principalship"
11
21/01/2021 11:22:48 9 1
bbc
For the most part I agree with this article but it depends what industry you want to work in.

I work in IT & was redundant in 2018. It took me months to get a job but when I did my boss has since told me it was between 2 candidates and the swaying factor in my interview was that I had a degree as nothing else divided us.
37
21/01/2021 11:30:38 3 0
bbc
So you only got hired because you were able to spend that extra money on the degree. Fair point. I've got an IT degree too and but I think the fact that there were two people who were at the same level and one had to spend an extra 3-4 years getting a degree shows that not everyone needs it.
As long as the other person can also find a decent job I think it's okay.
12
GF
21/01/2021 11:23:07 120 1
bbc
This step shows a realisation that not everyone is cut out to go to university, but that they should still have the opportunity to become highly skilled in whichever field they choose to go into.

It Germany vocational training means a highly skilled population across the board - also: less people in universities means that universities in Germany are mainly free.
119
21/01/2021 11:55:02 63 25
bbc
Universities are free in Germany because they reckonize the net positive to society. In the UK, saying vocational training is a "route to success" is the first step to charging people for it. If there's an opportunity for a profit, it must be exploited. After all, that was what was behind the "bin men shouldn't have to pay to educate doctors" guff said in support of university tuition fees.
327
21/01/2021 13:36:51 5 1
bbc
Alas mention anything is free in the UK, every man & his dog not only get in the queue, but believe it is their god given right to receive it whether they need it or not.
Im sure if labour & conservatives who continually chuck £s at every Tom Dora & Harriette then perhaps there would be some left in the pot for uni education for meaningful positions ie engineers sciences etc, not party planning
13
21/01/2021 11:24:10 30 3
bbc
I think it's a great idea we have been pushing kids to go to Uni for all the wrong reasons, often ending up with a poor degree and a pile of debt. Nothing wrong with going out into the work force or training for other skills. You can still be very successful without a degree having gained "life" experience. Be the the best you can at whatever you want to train in and you will succeed.
14
21/01/2021 11:24:14 53 14
bbc
You don't need relevant qualifications to get to the top. Just look at the Cabinet.
22
21/01/2021 11:26:55 36 12
bbc
Or, Angela Rayner.......
2
21/01/2021 11:18:42 196 10
bbc
Yay, someone figured it out at last. Not everyone needs or should go to Uni.
15
21/01/2021 11:24:52 84 7
bbc
Quite true - 50% of people don't need to go to uni either.
275
21/01/2021 13:35:27 4 1
bbc
Too many jobs that never needed a degree years ago seem to want one now. Some jobs you could start at the bottom with just a few O levels.
Nursing is the prime example. Bring back the State Enrolled Nurse for those who are caring and practical but don’t want the debt or academic feel of a degree.
520
21/01/2021 15:18:09 0 0
bbc
80% I reckon
527
21/01/2021 15:21:50 0 0
bbc
I went to College straight from school - it was a mistake- I would have been better off getting into work - I did get a degree eventually through the OU- plus other diplomas etc- when I was properly motivated.The pattern needs looking at-you don't,or shouldn't have to do everything at once.
16
21/01/2021 11:25:27 6 2
bbc
I've no degree and have never been unemployed and not earnt good money since the age of 16. Unfortunately kids now a days want to start at the top
17
Moz
21/01/2021 11:25:37 54 16
bbc
Free university to anyone doing STEM subjects

Pay for the rest if you just want it for a "Life experience"
31
21/01/2021 11:29:12 19 9
bbc
So people who actually want to do STEM for a career will now be competing for spots with people who have no intention of staying in STEM afterwards and just want the degree to get an office job? Great.
52
21/01/2021 11:32:46 7 3
bbc
The arts and culture industry contributes £10.8billion a year to the UK economy (2019). The sector contributes £2.8billion a year to the Treasury via taxation, and generates a further £23billion a year and 363,700 jobs.
18
21/01/2021 11:26:12 134 1
bbc
I think it's more likely that people now go to Uni because they're aware employers often specify degree level education is required. Obviously that's not true in all jobs/fields and, personally, I urge my managers not to get bogged down in qualifications - smart and capable people don't always have degrees.
198
21/01/2021 13:03:10 41 6
bbc
Never look at candidates education or offer my own. Its the experience & skill that counts after the 1st job. And yes I have postgrad qualifications ??

269
21/01/2021 13:33:38 10 0
bbc
We had a saying in the RN about some officers. They could give you the cubic capacity of a tin of beans but couldn't open it. There are some who just cannot pass exams but are very clever.
662
21/01/2021 17:08:51 3 0
bbc
"...smart and capable people don't always have degrees...."

===

and the requirement of a degree by employers and recruitment agencies is mostly laziness. Something they share with too many new graduates.

Being able to learn and apply new skills and get on with your colleagues are far more useful attributes (although some graduates can also do this).
19
21/01/2021 11:26:30 5 2
bbc
University is seen as a middle-class rite of passage. It has simply replaced the 11-plus as being the marker of success/failure.
4
21/01/2021 11:19:51 82 27
bbc
University is a complete waste of money now, it’s only worth going if your profession requires it like a doctor for example. I didn’t go so have no debt and earn more than my friends who did go.
20
21/01/2021 11:26:45 51 34
bbc
That's in your case and therefore subjective to you. Stats show time after time, those who go to university earn more, esp. in medicine, science, technology, engineering, maths, business and economics...
158
21/01/2021 12:13:41 26 3
bbc
They may earn more but reality is are the really the best people for the job, I know plenty of people with Uni degrees and to say they lack common sense or just general knowledge to get by in the real world would be an understatement.

Business is often blinded by that little bit of paper that proclaims a Uni degree and quite often those holding it don't turn out to be what that business needed.
173
21/01/2021 12:27:52 8 0
bbc
Whilst education shouldn't be measured just by financial benefit to the student, the wider benefit to society should be considered for state funding.

Govt still spend billions on unis.

Your subject list selective, many do less vocational and many struggle to secure employment, even at or near min wage.

Sobering gov UK figures, 2019 grads:-
Average debt £40k
ONLY 25% expected to repay in full.
179
21/01/2021 12:36:43 0 0
bbc
Only the few.
180
21/01/2021 12:38:18 3 1
bbc
They are all useful degrees where degrees in general are needed, what about media studies, art history and other useless degrees?
279
21/01/2021 13:36:09 2 0
bbc
The subjects which genuinely need degrees then?
322
21/01/2021 13:51:04 6 0
bbc
You are quite right as far as the subjects you list. On that I cannot argue with you.

But there are many other subjects taught by 3rd rate establishments that aren’t worth the time, effort or expense. The student are simply there to pay up and keep the vice chancellors in luxurious lifestyles.
462
21/01/2021 14:52:08 2 2
bbc
but who ever worries about evidence when posting on a BBC HYS?
660
sue
21/01/2021 17:08:03 1 0
bbc
Depends on the degree you get. Only really needed if going into a professional job. My daughter left school at 16 and a few years later was employing graduates.
750
22/01/2021 01:51:23 0 0
bbc
Then maybe there is a case for those being sponsored by an employer who expects and needs people with degree level knowledge. It's high time businesses which expect to take on graduates for entry level jobs got more engaged and made a commitment to helping those with the potential through the process of gaining a degree.
21
21/01/2021 11:24:57 354 41
bbc
My lad wanted to be a carpenter & joiner. "Oh no" the teacher sneered, "You should go to university, not get a manual job". He ignored them and got an apprenticeship.

The night before his 22nd birthday he moved into his own 3-bed house, having saved a £30,000 deposit and got his mortgage.

Kids (most) do not need to go to 'Uni'.
39
21/01/2021 11:30:59 198 11
bbc
Good for him. I think the other problem with degrees for all is the devaluing of vocational and practical careers. Where would we be without electricians, plumbers, builders and so on?
87
21/01/2021 11:42:28 31 75
bbc
He'll hit an earnings ceiling soon. In the long run, a degree will lead to a higher salary.
205
21/01/2021 13:07:33 36 1
bbc
The push for everyone to go to Uni is one of the reasons there is so much demand for trades people. Oddly enough it actually benefits your son and all those that do learn a trade. I know I find it hard enough to get a joiner/plumber/electrician to come out as they are all so busy!
224
21/01/2021 13:18:03 11 3
bbc
It shouldn't be too difficult to find information that shows if there is a correlation between income and educational attainment. There'll always be outliers, of course, but I'd lay a large bet on what that information would show you. Perhaps your son's teachers were working from facts. And as the world increasingly moves towards an automated, knowledge-based economy ....
227
21/01/2021 13:19:43 9 2
bbc
Likewise, I went to university and worked multiple jobs at the same time during my studies. I'd saved £30,000 for a deposit and also bought a 3 bedroom house at the end of my studies as well as securing a well paid career.

Drawing comparisons between university and apprenticeships isn't clear cut.
285
21/01/2021 13:37:14 11 2
bbc
I went to university as a working class mature student and studied science. I now have a Ph.D, and exciting and interesting career.

You get £20K/year tax free to do a Ph.D with no tuition fees, then you start off with a basic pay of £40K as a postdoc, going up to £70K with experience.

American or Media studies might be pointless, but I'm doing better than most trades with my science degree.
295
21/01/2021 13:41:33 3 0
bbc
Well done! Good on him x
297
21/01/2021 13:43:21 10 1
bbc
While I'm delighted for your son who is doing well, it is unwise to suggest that what's worked for him will work for everyone. Graduates (on average) earn £100k more than non-graduates over their career, which means they probably pay £50k more tax, that's a good result (on average) for everyone.
321
21/01/2021 13:50:38 7 4
bbc
The problem you fail to see (the right always do) is it's not all about you and your kid. For every one like your kid there's a hundred who don't do as well without education.
352
21/01/2021 14:00:21 8 1
bbc
My Daughter wanted to be a research scientist but couldn't afford the fees and debt, so she went to the EU and studied without fees and now works on Covid Vaccine maker Pfizer. AS long as we continue to place a 'market value' on education we are utterly screwed in this country
370
21/01/2021 14:06:15 5 5
bbc
Great story, if it were true. You weren't there, and the teacher didn't sneer ate him. He would be making sure he was aware of all his options before he made a decision.

Lots of parents and kids when they are older like to say "Oh nobody told me about this or that when I was at school"
407
JFK
21/01/2021 14:24:20 1 0
bbc
Good on him I did the same, my mates had a great time at Uni but at the moment I dont think they will catch up with me (not that its a competition) but Uni is not the be al and end all.

But a lot o it i think is that Universities are about money now not such education,,,,, lot of money changes hand for a degree now.
421
21/01/2021 14:33:27 2 0
bbc
Good on him. I left school with no qualifications. First job down pit within 2 days of leaving. Left pit to become a driving instructor in 1991...now have 20 instructor working with me. If you can add up, speak how you want to be spoken to. The worlds your oyster
441
Leo
21/01/2021 14:41:43 2 0
bbc
Before the 1980s only the top 5% went to university, and were paid to go. They got degrees worth something to them/society.

Mr Blair said 50% should go to university, when asked why there was no reply. And of course the initial were were said to be a token payment only.

Now ridiculous fees, worthless degrees. To quote many adverts `only candidates from Russell Group universities need apply'.
446
21/01/2021 14:43:39 2 0
bbc
Quite right; if a kid isn't interested in academic stuff, they should study what they enjoy but they need to know the possibilities. I studied Brewing at Heriott Watt, moved into the food industry after brewing and spent 30 years travelling the world looking after our raw material supply chains. I still work with academics and am a STEM ambassador in schools telling kids about science based jobs.
496
Gaz
21/01/2021 15:06:14 0 0
bbc
A chip off the old block!
498
21/01/2021 15:04:52 0 2
bbc
Most school leavers will end up working in supermarkets etc.
549
21/01/2021 15:30:10 2 0
bbc
A post from someone with limited intellectual imagination. There's much more to uni than the money you make. It expands your horizons, leads you to think in different and hugely varied ways. My degrees have led me to travel and live all over the world. Living in a miserable provincial town and working as a plumber or whatever? No thanks.
572
21/01/2021 15:39:45 1 1
bbc
Good for him. My daughter went to Uni and got a maths degree, so now earns £250k a year in finance. It should be the kids follow the path that is right for them, not pitting one against the other.
581
21/01/2021 15:40:59 1 1
bbc
Too right. I did an apprenticeship at 18 despite being told to go to uni with my high grades. 7 years on I'm in a field that is degree only, with no degree, earning 42k a year while all of my uni friends struggle to find their first job with their masters degrees.

No regrets. Apprenticeships all the way.
629
21/01/2021 16:34:50 1 0
bbc
How long ago was this? That 'teacher' was either hugely deluded, or you made them up.
14
21/01/2021 11:24:14 53 14
bbc
You don't need relevant qualifications to get to the top. Just look at the Cabinet.
22
21/01/2021 11:26:55 36 12
bbc
Or, Angela Rayner.......
235
21/01/2021 13:23:05 2 4
bbc
Angela Rayner, has no qualifications, yet is now the deputy leader of the Labour Party, having previously been the Shadow Education Secretary.....

I expect our leaders to be smarter than me, at least on paper, and formal qualifications are a good place to start.
What is a "relevant qualification" to be an MP?

Most would like our representatives, regardless of their politics, to have shared our real life issues and have empathy with our concerns.
Angela Rayner is mentioned. Like millions of us, she left school at 16 and had a vocational job for years.
All parties need more people from this background and less of the Public School-Oxbridge-Spad-MP types.
23
21/01/2021 11:27:15 16 8
bbc
Not this old article again, Most Uni degrees are a complete and utter waste of time!
32
21/01/2021 11:29:30 12 0
bbc
Depends on the course chosen.
365
21/01/2021 14:03:39 0 0
bbc
We have a huge innovation economy in the UK. There are science parks and engineering startups all over the place. Where do you think they get the staff from you utter plum?
24
21/01/2021 11:27:22 26 12
bbc
My university course was a complete waste of time, I eventually got frustrated and started self-studying to teach myself the skills I'd need to get a job.

Sadly, a lot of people still treat uni like a 3 year drinking holiday.
41
21/01/2021 11:31:03 16 17
bbc
'Sadly, a lot of people still treat uni like a 3 year drinking holiday.' Not true.
346
21/01/2021 13:58:31 0 2
bbc
I teach science to postgrads at university, and believe me these people are fiercely intelligent and very hard working.

Maybe you were just not up to the required standard? All I see here is your jealousy and prejudice.
25
21/01/2021 11:27:26 127 21
bbc
At last: the Blair nonsense is being undone. What a lot of wasted time, money and degrees it has taken.
44
21/01/2021 11:31:42 94 9
bbc
100% Agree - I put my head in my hands with whole 50% to Uni rubbish, we now have a huge number of low value degrees, with high debt cost and very low outcomes for those with qualifications in those subjects.
54
21/01/2021 11:32:57 16 6
bbc
Hopefully the next piece of Blair nonsense to go will be the human rights act which gives more rights to criminals and terrorists that it does to joe public. In true blair tradition it was introduced in order to give his human rights lawyer wife, as Arthur Daley would say, " a nice little earner"
440
Bob
21/01/2021 14:40:05 11 1
bbc
Indeed, the more people you send to university the more you dilute the worth of a degree.

It becomes the new defacto standard. Hence increasing number of roles 'requiring' a degree, that don't really need one, and employers having to look beyond degrees simply because so many have them.

It also helped breed a sense of entitlement around getting a degree.
627
21/01/2021 16:33:37 3 0
bbc
Precisely

How many graduates with media studies or politics or sports science does the UK actually need.

Subjects that we are in need of should be charged at a lower rate

AND stop this cliff edge nonsense for the paying back of debts - charge 3% extra on income tax for life on ALL income.
3
21/01/2021 11:19:23 4 23
bbc
Uk racing to the bottom..now they don't want to educated kids
26
21/01/2021 11:27:56 5 1
bbc
As soon as Blair let anyone go to Uni the race to the bottom was over, it was a stupid idea to let all kids believe they were Uni material. Some are better off going a tradesman route because otherwise all they'll end up with is debt and no job after 3/5 years.
27
21/01/2021 11:28:20 3 1
bbc
Unfortunately many companies like the quodos of employing top graduates from red brick universities. They need to change their attitudes first.
1
21/01/2021 11:18:17 23 26
bbc
The best route to success in this country is to be born rich, entitled and privileged and donate money to the Nasty Party.
28
21/01/2021 11:28:52 1 0
bbc
this is not wrong

however, it's your own success, not the success of the country or the general population
5
21/01/2021 11:20:53 7 12
bbc
Looking forward to the Media Studies, Tony Blair, useless degrees comments. Strange thing is most of them will be from those who weren't able to get a degree.......
29
21/01/2021 11:29:03 2 2
bbc
You believe everyone wanted or needed a degree, you're wrong.
30
21/01/2021 11:29:11 4 1
bbc
Unfortunately, there is herd mentality happening within universities at present in many departments.... one not to disadvantage students therefore exams turned into coursework, exams at home with supervision, etc.... the net result record high achievement=integrity crumbling
17
Moz
21/01/2021 11:25:37 54 16
bbc
Free university to anyone doing STEM subjects

Pay for the rest if you just want it for a "Life experience"
31
21/01/2021 11:29:12 19 9
bbc
So people who actually want to do STEM for a career will now be competing for spots with people who have no intention of staying in STEM afterwards and just want the degree to get an office job? Great.
326
21/01/2021 13:52:01 5 1
bbc
If you have a STEM subject you can earn way more in a lab or workshop than flying a desk in some office, so I very much doubt that this is a problem.
754
22/01/2021 02:24:12 0 0
bbc
Chancers like that will soon fall by the wayside and probably won't even complete the first year. Then they'll stop attempting to go down that route, it will only be a temporary problem. In the short term, the bolstering of demand for STEM subject will get the Universities attention which is part of the kick up the **** they need.
23
21/01/2021 11:27:15 16 8
bbc
Not this old article again, Most Uni degrees are a complete and utter waste of time!
32
21/01/2021 11:29:30 12 0
bbc
Depends on the course chosen.
49
21/01/2021 11:32:09 0 2
bbc
Not everyone going to Uni can even think about taking the prime courses. Most shouldn't even be there in Uni.
33
21/01/2021 11:29:42 3 1
bbc
Just say ‘So’.....at the beginning of every sentence, people will think you’ve been to University. So, why do they learn that?.....
50
21/01/2021 11:32:14 1 0
bbc
Yes!! Like, literally, you're so right...
103
21/01/2021 11:47:57 0 0
bbc
And also adopt a Kiwi inflection at the end of every sentence.....
34
21/01/2021 11:30:03 15 1
bbc
The University system in the UK is so fundamentally broken is it concerning. A university degree is now the equivalent of a GCSE/A-Level, it is the minimum requirement for roles which offers low pay and poor career progression . The system needs a shake up, starting with putting quotas on students in least beneficial degrees and encourage useful degrees e.g. economics, engineering & healthcare.
56
21/01/2021 11:33:40 14 3
bbc
Simple no tuition charges for those studying STEM and Medicine high charges for other subjects. Not sure about economics though. When the country pays scientists and engineers more than lawyers and accountants then the economy will improve rapidly.
35
21/01/2021 11:30:20 14 5
bbc
"Universities degree 'not the only route to success'"

What, you mean my plumber, electrician, joiner, builder, hairdresser, bus driver don't have a degree ?

How will we manage.
36
MVS
21/01/2021 11:30:30 34 11
bbc
University degrees are essential for a very few professions. Medicine, engineering, architecture. They are a useful indulgence for a few who genuinely wish to become experts in Art, Literature, Philosophy.
They are a waste of time for the vast majority of people who want to get decent jobs and earn a decent living.
487
21/01/2021 15:03:37 11 0
bbc
yes except many employers are focused on only employing uni graduates
11
21/01/2021 11:22:48 9 1
bbc
For the most part I agree with this article but it depends what industry you want to work in.

I work in IT & was redundant in 2018. It took me months to get a job but when I did my boss has since told me it was between 2 candidates and the swaying factor in my interview was that I had a degree as nothing else divided us.
37
21/01/2021 11:30:38 3 0
bbc
So you only got hired because you were able to spend that extra money on the degree. Fair point. I've got an IT degree too and but I think the fact that there were two people who were at the same level and one had to spend an extra 3-4 years getting a degree shows that not everyone needs it.
As long as the other person can also find a decent job I think it's okay.
207
21/01/2021 13:07:48 1 0
bbc
Fortunately for me I am so old I didn't pay fees & got a grant so uni cost me next to nothing just time.

I appreciate its very different now though.
38
21/01/2021 11:30:51 4 4
bbc
'to ensure employers get the skilled workforce they need.'

Paid for by the worker.

I have a degree, a car, a work history with references, yet am unable to find work because employers want slaves, not skilled workers.

There's a reason uk productivity is low.
Demoralised, dehumanised, exploited.
96
21/01/2021 11:46:45 3 1
bbc
What absolute nonsense.

I am an employer of 15 people. What I want and need is the people with the right skills and attitude to fit the job I need them to do.

Having a degree doesn't entitle you to anything.
21
21/01/2021 11:24:57 354 41
bbc
My lad wanted to be a carpenter & joiner. "Oh no" the teacher sneered, "You should go to university, not get a manual job". He ignored them and got an apprenticeship.

The night before his 22nd birthday he moved into his own 3-bed house, having saved a £30,000 deposit and got his mortgage.

Kids (most) do not need to go to 'Uni'.
39
21/01/2021 11:30:59 198 11
bbc
Good for him. I think the other problem with degrees for all is the devaluing of vocational and practical careers. Where would we be without electricians, plumbers, builders and so on?
97
21/01/2021 11:45:42 32 13
bbc
Precisely. Most people are more interested in keeping their home and car running than they are in history of art!
298
21/01/2021 13:43:22 14 0
bbc
There is also a devaluing of degrees.

A good indicator of the true worth of a degree is asking how many graduates end up using the specialisation of their degree in relation to their career. It’s also says much about the quality of the teaching at each university.
455
21/01/2021 14:49:27 3 0
bbc
And who do you think designs, pushes through the planning and ensures everything in place for electricians, plumbers and builders to have something to work on? I bet 99% of these people have degrees of some sort.

Not everyone goes to university to do history.
584
Len
21/01/2021 15:45:41 0 0
bbc
Degrees can be a door opener but then it's definitely down to the ability of the person. I had one a level at grade and still make much more money than my peers. A hard work ethic cannot be replaced.
606
21/01/2021 16:09:40 0 0
bbc
It also devalues degrees, with plenty not worthy of the title of degree
9
21/01/2021 11:22:27 20 3
bbc
Utter rubbish. I wasn't born rich, entitled or privileged. I left school at 16 with no qualifications and all in all had a good life and career.
40
21/01/2021 11:31:03 5 3
bbc
He didn't say the only route, he said the best route.
24
21/01/2021 11:27:22 26 12
bbc
My university course was a complete waste of time, I eventually got frustrated and started self-studying to teach myself the skills I'd need to get a job.

Sadly, a lot of people still treat uni like a 3 year drinking holiday.
41
21/01/2021 11:31:03 16 17
bbc
'Sadly, a lot of people still treat uni like a 3 year drinking holiday.' Not true.
265
21/01/2021 13:30:55 0 0
bbc
And study like ell for the 4th. ha ha.
42
21/01/2021 11:31:15 35 4
bbc
agree with this - a degree isn't the only route, but a relevant degree ,one with an actual career path and job opportunities helps a lot. Stick to STEM subjects for a degree or train in something where there is demand (plumbing, building, etc ,etc) for the skill - a generalisation i know but a pretty sure bet for moderate success. The rest depends on personal drive and ambition.
43
21/01/2021 11:31:36 66 4
bbc
Good move by the Government.

Many young people were sold a lie by Tony Blair's admirable but flawed "right to education" policy; wasting 3 years accumulating debt when they could be earning.

Not everyone is academically suited to university, but those that are not invariably have other more practical talents...
...so a move back toward apprenticeships like plumbing (pictured) is a great idea.
388
21/01/2021 14:15:13 9 2
bbc
I've been looking for ages but can't find a picture of a plumber in this article... Have we reached the point that we don't even know what a plumber looks like? ;)
25
21/01/2021 11:27:26 127 21
bbc
At last: the Blair nonsense is being undone. What a lot of wasted time, money and degrees it has taken.
44
21/01/2021 11:31:42 94 9
bbc
100% Agree - I put my head in my hands with whole 50% to Uni rubbish, we now have a huge number of low value degrees, with high debt cost and very low outcomes for those with qualifications in those subjects.
45
21/01/2021 11:31:56 33 1
bbc
The UK has lost sight of the need for inclusive education.

Yes there are young people who can thrive in academic studies and go on to university.

There are many who learn best through practical activities, many go on to apprenticeships.

And there a some a very few who can assimilate academic learning and practical skills.

UK education is geared only towards academia instead of employment!
61
21/01/2021 11:34:26 38 3
bbc
University education has been manipulated to reduce Unemployment amongst the young since the 1990's.
755
22/01/2021 02:30:25 0 0
bbc
What do you expect when you have a system where teachers are conditioned by going down that path themselves, it's too easy for them to transition from being a student to being a teacher with no "real world" experience in between.

I've always believed that was the main reason why schools careers advice was often so poor, lack of experience.
46
21/01/2021 11:31:58 19 8
bbc
"Tony Blair! Stick two poems up in a bus shelter and call it a university."
74
21/01/2021 11:37:50 2 0
bbc
Great line from a great programme along with "I didn't come up the Manchester ship canal on a Ryvita you know!"
47
21/01/2021 11:30:42 9 2
bbc
For many people, a degree, with its associated debt, will be a burden. Should never have sent so many people to the renamed polytechnics, most young people need to start at the bottom and work their way up. Half the population are not going to be instant managers, the7y have been sold a false dream.
48
21/01/2021 11:31:09 53 0
bbc
The stigma of doing apprenticeships is should be tackled at schools, man of which still target and measure success via uni applications.

I completed a business finance apprenticeship (the pilot year for the scheme), and it was the best choice for me as I learn by 'doing' rather than by books.
63
21/01/2021 11:34:49 35 1
bbc
And probably got paid for it as well, instead of spending £27k on a pointless degree with no job guarantee at the end of it.
32
21/01/2021 11:29:30 12 0
bbc
Depends on the course chosen.
49
21/01/2021 11:32:09 0 2
bbc
Not everyone going to Uni can even think about taking the prime courses. Most shouldn't even be there in Uni.
33
21/01/2021 11:29:42 3 1
bbc
Just say ‘So’.....at the beginning of every sentence, people will think you’ve been to University. So, why do they learn that?.....
50
21/01/2021 11:32:14 1 0
bbc
Yes!! Like, literally, you're so right...
65
MVS
21/01/2021 11:34:54 1 0
bbc
...innit
51
21/01/2021 11:32:39 3 3
bbc
In other words "Now we have enacted the will of the people and stopped migrant workers coming in to the do the jobs you don't want to do... YOU will have to do the jobs you don't want to do"
64
21/01/2021 11:34:49 1 0
bbc
And god forbid they should be capable of critical thinking. We’ve got BS to sell.
17
Moz
21/01/2021 11:25:37 54 16
bbc
Free university to anyone doing STEM subjects

Pay for the rest if you just want it for a "Life experience"
52
21/01/2021 11:32:46 7 3
bbc
The arts and culture industry contributes £10.8billion a year to the UK economy (2019). The sector contributes £2.8billion a year to the Treasury via taxation, and generates a further £23billion a year and 363,700 jobs.
53
21/01/2021 11:31:25 6 1
bbc
My son graduated in 2019 and still hasn't been able to secure a role to utilise what he learned to the fullest. Really disheartening!
93
21/01/2021 11:44:15 9 0
bbc
I don't know what he degree was in, but there seem to be a lot of degrees that don't correlate with a particular career.

It is no good saying to an employer "I have a degree" if it is not relevant to their business or the role they need to fill.
113
21/01/2021 11:52:37 2 0
bbc
What did he study?

Degrees are listed by the likelihood of their graduates gaining linked employment within 12 months. Having a degree isn't enough if there is little demand.
25
21/01/2021 11:27:26 127 21
bbc
At last: the Blair nonsense is being undone. What a lot of wasted time, money and degrees it has taken.
54
21/01/2021 11:32:57 16 6
bbc
Hopefully the next piece of Blair nonsense to go will be the human rights act which gives more rights to criminals and terrorists that it does to joe public. In true blair tradition it was introduced in order to give his human rights lawyer wife, as Arthur Daley would say, " a nice little earner"
55
21/01/2021 11:33:36 50 1
bbc
Given that 62% of student loans will never be paid back it shows that some university education is providing no benefit to improving the employment value of people going to university.
34
21/01/2021 11:30:03 15 1
bbc
The University system in the UK is so fundamentally broken is it concerning. A university degree is now the equivalent of a GCSE/A-Level, it is the minimum requirement for roles which offers low pay and poor career progression . The system needs a shake up, starting with putting quotas on students in least beneficial degrees and encourage useful degrees e.g. economics, engineering & healthcare.
56
21/01/2021 11:33:40 14 3
bbc
Simple no tuition charges for those studying STEM and Medicine high charges for other subjects. Not sure about economics though. When the country pays scientists and engineers more than lawyers and accountants then the economy will improve rapidly.
91
21/01/2021 11:44:06 3 2
bbc
No charges for STEM would simply lead to applications for STEM subjects becoming overwhelmed with people who have no intention of staying in a STEM field afterwards, and just want the degree as a stepping stone to something else. It would inevitably push many people who *want* to work in STEM out of the courses and would ultimately be counterproductive.
57
21/01/2021 11:33:45 11 0
bbc
Skilled builders and especially plumbers can earn very good money.
361
21/01/2021 14:02:24 2 2
bbc
But people with STEM degrees earn a lot more.
58
21/01/2021 11:33:53 4 2
bbc
Many seem to go to University to extend their childhood for three more years and escape responsibilities a little longer.
59
21/01/2021 11:34:09 2 0
bbc
"Ministers are setting out plans to improve vocational education, saying it is an "illusion" that degrees are the only route to success."

How many ministers don't have a degree?
73
21/01/2021 11:37:43 2 1
bbc
And how many ministers would be happy if their children decided not to go to Uni? However will those young Etonians take up their destined future cabinet roles to rule over us, if they don't go to Oxford to do PPE first?
75
21/01/2021 11:38:06 2 0
bbc
Some have degrees that are not worth the paper they are printed on.
60
21/01/2021 11:34:18 4 0
bbc
A University Degree is a helpful way of fulfilling the education requirements that other Countries can place on Work Visas. Thus making it much easier live and work outside of the UK, whether within the EU or beyond.
76
21/01/2021 11:38:52 2 0
bbc
"whether within the EU or beyond."

That is right, and was certainly the case for me.

However I should point out that in terms of moving for work more British people go to the 'beyond' (i.e English speaking countries) than they do the EU
45
21/01/2021 11:31:56 33 1
bbc
The UK has lost sight of the need for inclusive education.

Yes there are young people who can thrive in academic studies and go on to university.

There are many who learn best through practical activities, many go on to apprenticeships.

And there a some a very few who can assimilate academic learning and practical skills.

UK education is geared only towards academia instead of employment!
61
21/01/2021 11:34:26 38 3
bbc
University education has been manipulated to reduce Unemployment amongst the young since the 1990's.
705
21/01/2021 18:22:45 0 0
bbc
ROSLA in the 1970s was a step on the ladder. More in education until they're in their 20s hides the lack of real jobs in the labour market.
62
21/01/2021 11:34:41 9 4
bbc
People with degrees employ people with degrees because it validates their investment.

The more intelligent amongst us don't need lecturing because we're able to develop our skills and knowledge without assistance.

So don't undermine yourself by lookimg down your nose at those that don't have a degree because they're often more capable than you.

Prioritize those that enrich themselves!
115
21/01/2021 11:53:58 3 0
bbc
Quite a few companies only employ graduates, one of my friends trained in Law but now an hardware/software IT specialist for a well know company and paid very, very well, so yes I agree

although not all degree are equal.
372
21/01/2021 14:06:32 0 0
bbc
Oh great, DIY self-taught surgeons, architects and research scientists. That sounds safe. Gweat awgument. Ahuh Ahuh Ahuh :)
48
21/01/2021 11:31:09 53 0
bbc
The stigma of doing apprenticeships is should be tackled at schools, man of which still target and measure success via uni applications.

I completed a business finance apprenticeship (the pilot year for the scheme), and it was the best choice for me as I learn by 'doing' rather than by books.
63
21/01/2021 11:34:49 35 1
bbc
And probably got paid for it as well, instead of spending £27k on a pointless degree with no job guarantee at the end of it.
51
21/01/2021 11:32:39 3 3
bbc
In other words "Now we have enacted the will of the people and stopped migrant workers coming in to the do the jobs you don't want to do... YOU will have to do the jobs you don't want to do"
64
21/01/2021 11:34:49 1 0
bbc
And god forbid they should be capable of critical thinking. We’ve got BS to sell.
50
21/01/2021 11:32:14 1 0
bbc
Yes!! Like, literally, you're so right...
65
MVS
21/01/2021 11:34:54 1 0
bbc
...innit
3
21/01/2021 11:19:23 4 23
bbc
Uk racing to the bottom..now they don't want to educated kids
66
21/01/2021 11:35:36 0 0
bbc
It’s the right sort of education that is important - whether academic or practical.

And what does “they don't want to educated kids” mean anyway?
67
21/01/2021 11:34:07 8 0
bbc
They need to look at the inequality between A Level and vocational students. I'm studying a BTEC course because I'd rather gain practical experience as oppossed to sitting in a classroom and reading - and have applied for uni. Most uni courses want A Levels, yet my course is linked to the degree I want, and I have more experience with the pratical side of the course than someone doing A Levels.
595
21/01/2021 15:51:17 3 0
bbc
University courses are supposed to be theoretical ! If you want to do practical work, better to go straight into a trade - you'll end up with less debt. Labour started the race to the bottom, resulting in universities offering useless degrees in things like nursing, childcare, golf course studies, sports science, nutrition. All of which can either be learned on the job or on vocational courses
2
21/01/2021 11:18:42 196 10
bbc
Yay, someone figured it out at last. Not everyone needs or should go to Uni.
68
21/01/2021 11:35:50 17 2
bbc
Thats true, but a kids background shouldn't be a barrier either if they have the talent, resolve and will to go for a degree or deny a second chance for the older late developers.

The Btech route should be expanded. The Btech graduates quite often have a greater practical understanding of the subject than A level Students.
92
21/01/2021 11:44:12 16 1
bbc
I agree, if any kid is showing outstanding academic abilities in any subject they should be encouraged to follow that path if it's what they want.

Same for kids showing more practical talents should be guided to a local technical college or apprenticeship etc.
69
21/01/2021 11:36:12 15 2
bbc
I could not get out of school quick enough at 16. So have just 4 O-level passes to my name. I now have over 26 patents to my name. I think University tends to steer you down a narrow path.
142
21/01/2021 12:04:01 4 1
bbc
From a, Southerner, well-played to you, Sir, Madam.
356
21/01/2021 14:01:17 1 1
bbc
You are clearly representative of the majority of school leavers, who are all spitting out patents left right and centre/s

Out of interest, what are some of your patents, and have you leveraged any of them and made a fortune?
70
21/01/2021 11:36:29 30 5
bbc
3 decades ago the whole concept of UK advanced education was dumbed down by a "me, me," segment of the population that wished to be "inclusive"for all. Colleges of further education were "retitled" as Universities although the courses run in them were never degree standard. Only really bright people should merit intellectual university education. The rest merit Higher education/work training.
215
21/01/2021 13:12:04 8 12
bbc
Boris and his crew merit zilch.
674
21/01/2021 17:28:53 2 0
bbc
Problem is, far too many people get educated beyond their intellect.
Lost count of the number of graduates I've worked with who are just really thick !
71
21/01/2021 11:37:21 2 4
bbc
They get degrees but have ‘common sense’ taken away.
80
21/01/2021 11:39:43 3 2
bbc
You can't take away what the didn't have......
2
21/01/2021 11:18:42 196 10
bbc
Yay, someone figured it out at last. Not everyone needs or should go to Uni.
72
21/01/2021 11:34:48 16 7
bbc
Problem is most teachers have little experience of life outside teaching, so all they understand is academic routes, thus they try and encourage everyone to go that way. Most teachers wouldn't know one end of a spanner from the other!
90
21/01/2021 11:43:55 7 3
bbc
Some teachers qualified with an apprenticeship before going to university.
231
21/01/2021 13:21:15 3 0
bbc
I think this was true for Tony Blair and other politicians who believed that university was the best route for most.
59
21/01/2021 11:34:09 2 0
bbc
"Ministers are setting out plans to improve vocational education, saying it is an "illusion" that degrees are the only route to success."

How many ministers don't have a degree?
73
21/01/2021 11:37:43 2 1
bbc
And how many ministers would be happy if their children decided not to go to Uni? However will those young Etonians take up their destined future cabinet roles to rule over us, if they don't go to Oxford to do PPE first?
99
21/01/2021 11:47:01 2 0
bbc
PPE = 1st year philosopy + 1st year politics + 1st year economics

As for Boris he took the 4 year version of the 3 year classics degree. ( A course intended for SEN Etonians)
46
21/01/2021 11:31:58 19 8
bbc
"Tony Blair! Stick two poems up in a bus shelter and call it a university."
74
21/01/2021 11:37:50 2 0
bbc
Great line from a great programme along with "I didn't come up the Manchester ship canal on a Ryvita you know!"
59
21/01/2021 11:34:09 2 0
bbc
"Ministers are setting out plans to improve vocational education, saying it is an "illusion" that degrees are the only route to success."

How many ministers don't have a degree?
75
21/01/2021 11:38:06 2 0
bbc
Some have degrees that are not worth the paper they are printed on.
60
21/01/2021 11:34:18 4 0
bbc
A University Degree is a helpful way of fulfilling the education requirements that other Countries can place on Work Visas. Thus making it much easier live and work outside of the UK, whether within the EU or beyond.
76
21/01/2021 11:38:52 2 0
bbc
"whether within the EU or beyond."

That is right, and was certainly the case for me.

However I should point out that in terms of moving for work more British people go to the 'beyond' (i.e English speaking countries) than they do the EU
77
21/01/2021 11:38:52 7 0
bbc
We have far too many universities scrambling for students to fill the seats and making promises about future careers are unrealistic. It is hoped that the scandalous behaviour of university authorities during the covid period, taking full fees for part-time / distance learning and accommodation rental problems may open the eyes of some of the blinkered youths about their future career paths.
387
21/01/2021 14:15:02 3 0
bbc
Nonsense, we turn students away for STEM subjects, it's highly competetive. With a STEM degree you can earn more, get a more interesting job and live anywhere in the word.
9
21/01/2021 11:22:27 20 3
bbc
Utter rubbish. I wasn't born rich, entitled or privileged. I left school at 16 with no qualifications and all in all had a good life and career.
78
21/01/2021 11:38:54 2 3
bbc
I said the "best route". Did you learn verbal comprehension skills at school?
79
21/01/2021 11:39:16 16 7
bbc
The last Labour government set a ridiculous target of 50% of all children to go to University.

This led to polytechnics becoming universities, and a proliferation of degrees in sujects like golf course management, sports science, hospitality and media studies.

Universies, and degrees should be for academic study. Opening them to the masses has diluted their value.
86
21/01/2021 11:41:31 12 3
bbc
Polytechnics became universities under the conservatives check your history.
371
21/01/2021 14:06:21 1 0
bbc
Is a graduate with a PhD in history of equivalent intellect to a PhD in physics or engineering? Do you regard the applied sciences as non academic? My A level physics teacher tried to dissuade me from pursuing a degree in civil engineering because he regarded it as non academic! Unbelievable ignorance and prejudice. Our headmaster had a degree in electrical engineering to the dismay of many!
71
21/01/2021 11:37:21 2 4
bbc
They get degrees but have ‘common sense’ taken away.
80
21/01/2021 11:39:43 3 2
bbc
You can't take away what the didn't have......
81
21/01/2021 11:36:01 2 1
bbc
The government will always want you to work for someone. Get your kids out of that mindset. If I could go back 20 years I would set up my own window cleaning business, I woulda been paying off my first house by the time all the students were moving back into thier parents house.
237
21/01/2021 13:23:53 0 0
bbc
Have to disagree - I watched my father go through hell running a building firm late 70s-early 90s, from a team of 10 guys to no guys and limited work and financial stress. His one piece of advice before he died young, was don't start your own business without thinking very hard...the day never stops, no holidays in the early years, work for someone else and live your life!
5
21/01/2021 11:20:53 7 12
bbc
Looking forward to the Media Studies, Tony Blair, useless degrees comments. Strange thing is most of them will be from those who weren't able to get a degree.......
82
21/01/2021 11:39:56 1 0
bbc
...especially sneering at Media Studies whilst being addicted to their mobile phones and Netflix etc.
83
21/01/2021 11:40:16 15 4
bbc
We have Blair to thank for this mess - everyone had to go to university! At the time I felt it was a mistake which has lead to a severe shortage of skilled apprentices.

With the all respect to those who aren't suited to university, not everyone is as good with their minds as they are with their hands

Great idea saddling a 21 year old with a £40000+ debt for a degree which wont guarantee a job
104
21/01/2021 11:48:18 9 10
bbc
Blair's aim was 50%, not "everyone". Today's student debt problems are due to Cameron's Tories.
442
21/01/2021 14:42:52 1 0
bbc
The other thing is that there is much greater need for skilled tradespeople and generally those jobs are very difficult to replace with AI or offshore to India or some other very cheap country. If your building needs rewiring you need British electricians, Chinese ones are not really an option.
6
21/01/2021 11:21:32 222 9
bbc
Universities degree 'not the only route to success'

---

Well, they are for University Vice Chancellors, who have seen their salaries increase to obscene amounts in recent years.

That's what your £9,000 a year fees are paying for.
84
21/01/2021 11:41:25 47 28
bbc
Not just VC's, the cost of administering degrees has rocketed - it's Parkinson's Law, administration costs grow to match the budget allocated.

Imagine paying staff for 20% of their time to do research with out checks to ensure it is either done, useful of cost effective!

Teaching only contracts should be the norm not the exception.
245
21/01/2021 13:26:03 11 1
bbc
I used to work for a medical researcher at a university. Any research grants awarded had 40% taken off by the university for "administration".
288
21/01/2021 13:38:18 19 1
bbc
Research is always checked by publishing in academic journals which requires peer review by academics worldwide in the same discipline. Lecturers who do not publish enough research can lose their position.

University research is the backbone of scientific and technological development in this country. It is the last thing we should be getting rid of now.
358
21/01/2021 14:01:51 9 2
bbc
Universities are not schools. Universities do research which provide income and prestige. They also provide all manner of technological advances for the academic world and ultimately, commercial world to take advantage of (vaccines are a recent highlight). Teaching is just a part of it and doesn't progress anything.
386
21/01/2021 14:14:15 12 1
bbc
If you have a problem with universities doing research then you really don't understand what they are for.
452
Leo
21/01/2021 14:46:49 8 1
bbc
Wow no one checks if the University. Given that 95% of university research are research tenders from the ESRC/Leverhulme et cetera worth hundreds of thousands, the average fee being £400K plus, I can assure readers check are completed by the commissioning bodies to check they are getting their money's worth.

Nick I have a feeling you have no idea about university research: well you don't
483
Gaz
21/01/2021 15:00:58 5 0
bbc
You couldnt be more wrong as almost every university audits and assesses research outputs and grants against every single lecturer, and if you dont produce good research papers and grants then your time for research time is taken away.
547
21/01/2021 15:29:40 0 0
bbc
In reality, vc's salaries are not out of league with what business pays. Your second point could be read as saying `medical research is not needed'. If you examine the system, you could well find a case for saying that teaching only contracts do not work in general. Front line advances can only be taught by those at the forefront of research in their specialisations.
645
21/01/2021 16:47:21 2 0
bbc
You seem to be quite clueless. Universities and lecturers are subject to endless checks, reviews, institutional audits, and the likes. The problem is that they spend too much time on justifying what they do rather than doing research. The pressure they face in modern times to produce research, raise funding, and manage grants (on top of teaching and admin) is actually very high. And salaries low.
712
21/01/2021 18:31:28 0 0
bbc
Who will do research if you have teaching only contracts. In my experience the academics would rather do the research so checking on them would be a waste of energy. Making sure that they are good teachers would be better as all are not gifted in that way.
734
21/01/2021 21:00:25 0 0
bbc
And exactly where do you think the research for lot of medical advances such as the Covid vaccines and drugs to help those infected came from?
The biggest problem was Blair pushing for 50% to go to university and a stupid fees system with institutions competing. How many places now have a least 2 universities?
738
21/01/2021 21:26:20 0 0
bbc
so according to your VERY limited viewpoint oxford should never have been involved with the covid vaccine.
clearly you never went to a uni otherwise you would realise exactly how much business and the UK benefit from uni research
85
21/01/2021 11:41:27 16 2
bbc
As someone who went to university and got a degree I can tell you that unless you are going into a specialist role (teacher/doctor/lawyer/etc) you really don't need one.

There simply arent enough graduate positions out there for all the people graduating each year so like me you will probably end up doing something that is in no way relevent to your degree and you could have saved a fortune!
105
21/01/2021 11:48:36 8 11
bbc
So we don't need engineers etc. really?
79
21/01/2021 11:39:16 16 7
bbc
The last Labour government set a ridiculous target of 50% of all children to go to University.

This led to polytechnics becoming universities, and a proliferation of degrees in sujects like golf course management, sports science, hospitality and media studies.

Universies, and degrees should be for academic study. Opening them to the masses has diluted their value.
86
21/01/2021 11:41:31 12 3
bbc
Polytechnics became universities under the conservatives check your history.
21
21/01/2021 11:24:57 354 41
bbc
My lad wanted to be a carpenter & joiner. "Oh no" the teacher sneered, "You should go to university, not get a manual job". He ignored them and got an apprenticeship.

The night before his 22nd birthday he moved into his own 3-bed house, having saved a £30,000 deposit and got his mortgage.

Kids (most) do not need to go to 'Uni'.
87
21/01/2021 11:42:28 31 75
bbc
He'll hit an earnings ceiling soon. In the long run, a degree will lead to a higher salary.
114
21/01/2021 11:49:24 54 4
bbc
Possibly so (although far from certain on both counts) - but my point is that one doesn't need to go to university to earn a damned good living - and unlike a lot of his school friends he has no university debt to pay.
188
21/01/2021 12:49:57 55 2
bbc
It depends on the degree
209
21/01/2021 13:08:43 42 6
bbc
Not necessarily true. Especially if he starts his own business. And not every degree is valuable.
408
21/01/2021 14:24:30 1 0
bbc
Not true. Move into management in your chosen career line and academic qualifications are largely irrelevant. Interpersonal, organisational skills and personal drive matter more.
419
21/01/2021 14:32:32 2 0
bbc
All jobs have a ceiling cap. Most degrees actually really don't contribute to needed real life skills. So leaving Uni going into standard office work is likely to have a lower cap than the more in-demand skills of electrician, carpenter. AI will be able to remove significant need for many office roles in the near future as well. But it is much harder to make a robot to replace a tradesperson.
424
21/01/2021 14:34:26 0 0
bbc
Really?? What after they earn the degree they go off on a completely opposite tangent?
8
21/01/2021 11:22:25 89 2
bbc
These days even having a degree is no guarantee of employment and success.
88
21/01/2021 11:43:13 61 8
bbc
True but I don't know where I'd be without mine (in a factory like my Dad?)

I am pretty sure that having a masters got me to interviews that were to prove crucial career steps.

No one walks into a job these days, especially not raw graduates, but sometimes qualifications can prove useful.
133
21/01/2021 11:59:52 0 2
bbc
I'm curious. What's your masters in and what do you do for employment?
613
21/01/2021 16:16:43 3 0
bbc
And yet more and more masters degrees require no specific Bachelors. Any will do as the masters start from scratch. Very doubtful these masters are of any 'higher' difficulty than their corresponding BSc/BA. Just fill the seats for the $$ as they scoop up the master loan payments
89
21/01/2021 11:43:39 11 4
bbc
I completed a Chemistry Degree at Warwick University in 1979.

ICI made 2,000 chemists redundant in 1979 not one of those who studied with me got a job using their degree.

So don't let current students moan they can't get a job with a mick mouse degree.
110
21/01/2021 11:51:25 7 2
bbc
With a PhD in Chemistry (1980), had to move all over the country, changing jobs three times, while the Chemical Industry consolidated and contracted. Wasn't easy to bring up a family. Life has always been hard, today's kids seem to believe that the world owes them something...
379
21/01/2021 14:10:47 0 0
bbc
Because a degree is considered a starting point now and most employers expect a Ph.D. I have a Ph.D in biochemistry and I can walk into a job whenever I like.
72
21/01/2021 11:34:48 16 7
bbc
Problem is most teachers have little experience of life outside teaching, so all they understand is academic routes, thus they try and encourage everyone to go that way. Most teachers wouldn't know one end of a spanner from the other!
90
21/01/2021 11:43:55 7 3
bbc
Some teachers qualified with an apprenticeship before going to university.
109
21/01/2021 11:47:10 5 1
bbc
Some. But not most.
56
21/01/2021 11:33:40 14 3
bbc
Simple no tuition charges for those studying STEM and Medicine high charges for other subjects. Not sure about economics though. When the country pays scientists and engineers more than lawyers and accountants then the economy will improve rapidly.
91
21/01/2021 11:44:06 3 2
bbc
No charges for STEM would simply lead to applications for STEM subjects becoming overwhelmed with people who have no intention of staying in a STEM field afterwards, and just want the degree as a stepping stone to something else. It would inevitably push many people who *want* to work in STEM out of the courses and would ultimately be counterproductive.
120
21/01/2021 11:55:09 2 2
bbc
Raise the A level entry requirements for STEM degrees and limit the number of places simple.
68
21/01/2021 11:35:50 17 2
bbc
Thats true, but a kids background shouldn't be a barrier either if they have the talent, resolve and will to go for a degree or deny a second chance for the older late developers.

The Btech route should be expanded. The Btech graduates quite often have a greater practical understanding of the subject than A level Students.
92
21/01/2021 11:44:12 16 1
bbc
I agree, if any kid is showing outstanding academic abilities in any subject they should be encouraged to follow that path if it's what they want.

Same for kids showing more practical talents should be guided to a local technical college or apprenticeship etc.
53
21/01/2021 11:31:25 6 1
bbc
My son graduated in 2019 and still hasn't been able to secure a role to utilise what he learned to the fullest. Really disheartening!
93
21/01/2021 11:44:15 9 0
bbc
I don't know what he degree was in, but there seem to be a lot of degrees that don't correlate with a particular career.

It is no good saying to an employer "I have a degree" if it is not relevant to their business or the role they need to fill.
9
21/01/2021 11:22:27 20 3
bbc
Utter rubbish. I wasn't born rich, entitled or privileged. I left school at 16 with no qualifications and all in all had a good life and career.
94
21/01/2021 11:44:21 1 1
bbc
Lucky then.
95
21/01/2021 11:45:37 3 1
bbc
University is but one route to success. I am a great believer in putting emphasis on the alternatives such as vocational training and technical colleges. I have long believed anyone with a trade such as building, plumbing, electrical or mechanical will always make a good living as these trades are in demand. I went to University and used my degree to best advantage in finance.
38
21/01/2021 11:30:51 4 4
bbc
'to ensure employers get the skilled workforce they need.'

Paid for by the worker.

I have a degree, a car, a work history with references, yet am unable to find work because employers want slaves, not skilled workers.

There's a reason uk productivity is low.
Demoralised, dehumanised, exploited.
96
21/01/2021 11:46:45 3 1
bbc
What absolute nonsense.

I am an employer of 15 people. What I want and need is the people with the right skills and attitude to fit the job I need them to do.

Having a degree doesn't entitle you to anything.
39
21/01/2021 11:30:59 198 11
bbc
Good for him. I think the other problem with degrees for all is the devaluing of vocational and practical careers. Where would we be without electricians, plumbers, builders and so on?
97
21/01/2021 11:45:42 32 13
bbc
Precisely. Most people are more interested in keeping their home and car running than they are in history of art!
220
21/01/2021 13:15:59 22 5
bbc
Indeed, but get a job in history of art and as there's so little competition, you may earn more and not be physically broken by the age of 50. There is no single correct path.
600
21/01/2021 15:58:16 0 0
bbc
Why can't someone be interested in both?
98
21/01/2021 11:46:54 1 0
bbc
Quango
73
21/01/2021 11:37:43 2 1
bbc
And how many ministers would be happy if their children decided not to go to Uni? However will those young Etonians take up their destined future cabinet roles to rule over us, if they don't go to Oxford to do PPE first?
99
21/01/2021 11:47:01 2 0
bbc
PPE = 1st year philosopy + 1st year politics + 1st year economics

As for Boris he took the 4 year version of the 3 year classics degree. ( A course intended for SEN Etonians)
100
21/01/2021 11:47:04 3 1
bbc
Never mind the 'only route to success'; will there even be such a thing as a 'route to success' for young people in the coming years? What will be left of the economy? businesses? etc. We've cashed in all our chips for Covid, and with our leaders wedded to 'lockdown' as the 'cure', there'll be more to come. Young people are reading the runes and asking 'what's the point?' A storm is coming.