Prioritise northern rail network over HS2, says report
15/12/2020 | news | business | 256
Linking close-by cities with an upgraded line will have a higher economic impact, a report says.
1
15/12/2020 13:12:47 21 8
bbc
Surprise surprise .....
What a waste of public money
2
15/12/2020 13:14:48 63 5
bbc
The neglect of the rest of the country and blinkered focus on London will do nothing to heal the growing divide between London and the rest of the UK. A vast waste of money for marginal gains
127
Pip
15/12/2020 16:22:31 14 0
bbc
Try travelling out of the South West........?
197
15/12/2020 18:50:10 1 0
bbc
I think the whole HS2 thing is a complete waste of money. But, having been finally approved to go ahead, I did predict it would never reach the north of the country.
London is ok, so we should all be happy. I hear the red wall foundations being laid every single day, and by blue leaders!
3
15/12/2020 13:15:19 8 4
bbc
A Bind man would have spotted this at a thousand paces

4
15/12/2020 13:15:46 9 2
bbc
Let's hope the listen to the findings of this report!

Let's do stuff that's actually needed and worthwhile, rather than ticking someone's vanity project box.
5
15/12/2020 13:16:53 3 2
bbc
Dear God, I’m agreeing with an article on the BBC website.

Whats going on!
6
15/12/2020 13:17:16 66 0
bbc
Government made a strategic mistake by closing in 1981 the Woodhead Tunnel Trans-Pennine rail link, one of the longest in the world. So many steam trains thundered through it that a 2nd tunnel was completed a couple of years later. Even as late as the 1950s, the link between Sheffield and Manchester was so strategic that a much wider 3rd tunnel was added to take one of UKs first electric trains.
133
15/12/2020 16:44:17 25 8
bbc
HS2 is a complete and utter waste of money. It will prove to be one of the most costly WHITE ELEPHANTS of the 21st century. A cost the UK - together with covid19 and Brexit - can NOT afford. Money should be spent on more useful, helpful projects.
160
15/12/2020 17:38:28 3 0
bbc
Too damned right

North has been sacrificed for way too long
7
15/12/2020 13:24:29 11 5
bbc
I would say "Oh noes why didn't we see this report sooner"

Plenty of similar studies were done and came to the same conclusion, HS2 is a waste of money.

Why is it being built? follow the money... who do all the bloated government contracts go to?

HS2 is just an opportunity to make a lot of money disappear and then reappear in Tory and Tory supporter pockets.
15
15/12/2020 13:35:35 3 3
bbc
Hate to break it but not everything is a Tory conspiracy. That's lazy thinking.
I could easily argue that union barons will make millions from all the subs from HS2 workers, but that's just equally stupid.
Rather like this rubbish about PPE. They were buying from everyone who offered so sure, cherry pick and you'll find Tory donors. You'll also probably find Oxfam donors - was that conspiracy too?
8
TG
15/12/2020 13:24:37 8 1
bbc
North, South ,East , West. What we do with regard to transport has to be re evaluated in the likely event that WFH and localised hubs, enabling far less commuting and distance meetings will become the norm. Take a breath the world has changed. These are lasting changes ignore them at our peril and COST! Have the balls to review the previous assumptions on all transport projects
9
15/12/2020 13:24:53 100 11
bbc
Finally - a sensible voice. HS2 is a "by London for London" vanity project.
The north doesn't need it or want it. We don't want to go to London, rather we simply want to be able to travel around our home counties as easily as Southerners can travel around theirs.
Scrap HS2 now and give the £100Bn to the northern transport acceleration council.
51
15/12/2020 14:25:32 20 34
bbc
Nothing to do with 'London'. The blame for this fiasco is Johnson's and his Cartel.
72
15/12/2020 15:11:17 8 1
bbc
Scrap it Now, because like cross rail costs will continue to overrun and it will be a lot more than £100bln that we the taxpayer poor into this out of date idea. The World and travel have drastically changed and technology/wfh have been embraced the government needs to be brave enough to reassess our travel needs accordingly.
73
15/12/2020 15:11:25 7 1
bbc
Those swingeing Beeching cuts look increasing folly with every decade that passes, those closed lines would come in real handy now for better public transport.
75
PCS
15/12/2020 15:14:07 4 5
bbc
I agree the northern part of England is in dire need of this type of investment first, and since there's nowt on offer for Scotland / Wales / NI can the Scots be permitted indyref2 since not a penny of HS2 was coming in that direction.
148
Bob
15/12/2020 17:06:54 3 2
bbc
HS2 is a waste, sure. But I don't think you've been to the south, have you.

Well, perhaps at least not after Beeching had his way.

There is no such thing as being able to travel around or go city-to-city in the south either. What exists is essentially an 'LS2'. A low-speed crummy line into London. Don't live on the line? Well you best like long bus journeys.
10
CJ
15/12/2020 13:25:03 8 1
bbc
More than sure that the Government will listen to the report long enough to pause the Northern aspects of HS2 but will then decide not to implement the report's other recommendations about Northern infrastructure and will then not restart HS2 for the North because "someone has to pay for COVID" etc.
11
15/12/2020 13:26:48 31 10
bbc
Stop HS2. Everyone knows it is a farcical white elephant. From day one. But now, after cost scams ramping it up, let alone the end of any business travel funding any of it since cirvid taught business how to stop wasting time traveling , there is no case for any part of HS2.

These factors may also be relevant to this normal line add ons, more thought and consideration needed, not 'we want£'.
12
15/12/2020 13:28:17 43 7
bbc
All about London the Georgie Powerhouse was a passing thought.

If levelling up was ever serious the spades in the ground would have commenced in the North...
13
15/12/2020 13:29:28 61 15
bbc
Don't think it matters where in the UK you live

I have not met 1 person who believes HS2 is anything other than an eye wateringly expensive folly

At best it's a nice to have

HS2 should not even be a conversation whilst we think of the debt we are racking up during Covid

Embracing technology and successfully working remotely is one huge positive from Covid that should kick HS2 well in to touch
138
15/12/2020 16:47:46 12 10
bbc
Well said.
But the point is this. Bozon and his Tory club mate members will be making an awful lot of money, from the awarding of contracts for this project, to their friends in the construction industry.
162
15/12/2020 17:43:14 3 5
bbc
Well you haven’t met me, but I think it’s a great idea. We haven’t got enough capacity on the existing lines and HS2 increases capacity. It isn’t possible to increase capacity on the existing lines without spending at least as much as too many bottlenecks, bridges would need to be replaced, additional lines laid, tunnels made wider.
222
15/12/2020 23:09:30 1 0
bbc
It is an absolute folly, but there are Labour mayors and MPs in the north of England who would cry out about broken promises for levelling up if there was even a whisper of HS2 seriously being cancelled by a Tory government. Politics ruling over economic sense unfortunately.
14
15/12/2020 13:33:00 18 1
bbc
Scrapping HS2 you would hope could save a lot of money. Unfortunately I expect the way the contracts have been worded and signed up to, means the government will have to pay to cancel - how much tho is the question.
7
15/12/2020 13:24:29 11 5
bbc
I would say "Oh noes why didn't we see this report sooner"

Plenty of similar studies were done and came to the same conclusion, HS2 is a waste of money.

Why is it being built? follow the money... who do all the bloated government contracts go to?

HS2 is just an opportunity to make a lot of money disappear and then reappear in Tory and Tory supporter pockets.
15
15/12/2020 13:35:35 3 3
bbc
Hate to break it but not everything is a Tory conspiracy. That's lazy thinking.
I could easily argue that union barons will make millions from all the subs from HS2 workers, but that's just equally stupid.
Rather like this rubbish about PPE. They were buying from everyone who offered so sure, cherry pick and you'll find Tory donors. You'll also probably find Oxfam donors - was that conspiracy too?
185
15/12/2020 18:19:49 0 0
bbc
Follow the money....

Way too much just happens to go into the pockets of Tory donors and the friends and families of their MPs and peers

It's not a 'conspiracy', it's just standard practice for them, and has been for a few hundred years
16
15/12/2020 13:39:40 11 3
bbc
NORTHERN powerhouse. I In Bridlington which is further north than most of the northern powerhouse yet I am equi-distant from London and Edinburgh. As an ex Surreyite I have been shocked just how little the middle 3/4 of the country is considered by any of the parliaments and the BBC. Ha even the national weather forecast dosent even get near. London,Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast. plot them .
17
15/12/2020 13:40:21 48 4
bbc
When HS2 comes in - it'll take longer to get from Chester to Manchester (40 miles away) than it will to get from Crewe to London (180 miles away).

There needs to be more investment in local intercity transport links, than in shaving a few minutes off the travel time to London.
18
MVP
15/12/2020 13:40:40 32 6
bbc
Upgrading the 40 year old rolling stock still used in the North has got to be the priority at the moment.

When that has been done we can then start thinking of something more ambitious
47
15/12/2020 14:17:56 3 0
bbc
The last sprinter has already rumbled
168
15/12/2020 17:51:22 0 0
bbc
What 40 year rolling stock? All has been replaced, with the last pacer being retired a few months ago
19
15/12/2020 13:28:09 4 15
bbc
Absolute crap!

Having fast and efficient North-South links will erode the divide by encouraging travel between them. Just strengthening local links will only exacerbate the divide: any fool can see this.

Years ago, when there was a half-decent link between Leeds and London myself, and others used to commute DAILY. Links like HS2 will help people take a national, rather than provincial view.
26
15/12/2020 13:50:00 14 1
bbc
I think you're missing the point. We don't need better means of commuting to the capital to work, we need better jobs sharing round the country to reduce inequality. These days Leeds is a major financial hub and there are many well paid jobs.

However business leaders that I speak to all say the same - we want better connections between Northern cities.
20
15/12/2020 13:30:10 16 8
bbc
We simply dont need HS2 for a country this size. Billions for an hr here and there ?
Not to mention with more WFH and companies desperate to get out of london.
Upgrade existing infrastructure and put back a load of lines that beeching cut.
As some one pointed out below how the woodhead route was ever closed is beyond belief.
21
15/12/2020 13:42:24 17 9
bbc
HS2 only made sense when HS1 would link Continental Europe to the midlands. Europe is now much less important and that means HS2 is simply not needed. One thing Covid-19 has taught the world is that face-to-face business meetings are also not needed anymore, which means HS2 is just a total waste of money.
87
15/12/2020 15:33:33 0 0
bbc
It depends on whether you are buying or selling.
22
15/12/2020 13:43:35 30 5
bbc
This report just tells us what we, the silent majority, already know. How much did this cost? Cost increases for HS2 a seem fraudulently high to me. Why not put risk onto the contractors by using firm fixed price contracts? Too much power concentrated in London centric civil servants' hands.
165
15/12/2020 17:50:11 3 0
bbc
A lot of the cost is in the land purchases, rather than the construction.
23
15/12/2020 13:45:05 8 4
bbc
This will never happen

The MPs from the north are crap at fighting our corner
49
15/12/2020 14:18:45 1 1
bbc
Yet when they regularly do, they are attacked for 'playing politics'

It's amazing how easily generations of smearing, whispering campaigns, and barefaced lying has become 'truth'
Is it the fault of a nation where London and the surrounding counties seems to be the only important area, soaking up most money, a predominantly right-wing press that attacks the regions at will, or both?!? ?????
24
15/12/2020 13:45:58 1 6
bbc
Railways always were a waste of money, no one will want to use them while we still have packhorses and stout boots.
50
Rob
15/12/2020 14:20:35 1 1
bbc
Railways carrier lots of freight what do you want more trucks on the road lots of other countries invest in railways
25
15/12/2020 13:47:00 27 10
bbc
HS2 must be scrapped, always designed to get people to London faster rather than the other way around. COVID has taught us that we do not need even bigger cities. Cancel it now.
57
15/12/2020 14:32:43 9 6
bbc
Wrong. Designed to increase capacity for a network that is basically chock full. We've just been sold on the time factor.
171
15/12/2020 17:55:50 0 1
bbc
No it isn’t, it is to increase capacity on an overused network. HS2 will take long distance trains off the existing network, allowing other trains to travel more efficiently on the existing network. Loads of bottlenecks on the existing system which means local trains have to stop to wait for faster express trains to go through
19
15/12/2020 13:28:09 4 15
bbc
Absolute crap!

Having fast and efficient North-South links will erode the divide by encouraging travel between them. Just strengthening local links will only exacerbate the divide: any fool can see this.

Years ago, when there was a half-decent link between Leeds and London myself, and others used to commute DAILY. Links like HS2 will help people take a national, rather than provincial view.
26
15/12/2020 13:50:00 14 1
bbc
I think you're missing the point. We don't need better means of commuting to the capital to work, we need better jobs sharing round the country to reduce inequality. These days Leeds is a major financial hub and there are many well paid jobs.

However business leaders that I speak to all say the same - we want better connections between Northern cities.
31
15/12/2020 13:56:09 1 2
bbc
No you are missing the point. All over the world the largest cities always offer vastly more opportunities. It's not done by deliberate design, it's just the natural way things evolve. So having very good access to these cities is a really good thing for most.

Of course local business leaders don't want this, because they lose their captive cheap work force: not conjecture, I've seen it.
27
15/12/2020 13:53:47 84 6
bbc
With so many people now working from home and using Microsoft Teams/Zoom etc there isn't the need for HS2.

Try using a Northern Rail train.
Filthy old trains leaking rain in etc.
That should be the priority.
34
15/12/2020 14:06:32 5 22
bbc
Check out the number of people still flying from London to Scotland, there is still demand even in a pandemic.
46
15/12/2020 14:16:10 2 0
bbc
No old trains now. And possible grand plans for new stations in the next few decades! Why does this stuff take so long?
159
15/12/2020 17:34:45 1 0
bbc
Northern have actually replaced many of these trains. All the Pacers have gone
28
15/12/2020 13:46:22 3 4
bbc
We need to do both. HS2 is to far gone to cancel now. Contracts signed, land cleared, Tunnel boarding machines paid for.
43
15/12/2020 14:14:07 4 0
bbc
Never too far. They can go bore somewhere else. Stonehenge or the Thames, maybe? There are no significant time savings unless you live next to the line.
103
15/12/2020 15:45:44 0 0
bbc
Last desparate project fear like attitude. Yes there woukd be rigged in pay offs to cancel it but it will always be cheaper than building and worse running it. Two centuries out of date transport method. Now information moves not people. Live visual and even coming virtual reality is how people meet now.
29
15/12/2020 13:46:50 9 6
bbc
The HS2 that is scheculed to be delivered is all ready out of date technology . Its train on tracks! The steam train was invented in 1804. The HS2 Is jus tbigger and flashier and uses different fuel. We should be looking to invest in Hyperloop / Magnetic tec. Or at least fuel the trains with reneawable energy. The whole thing is tosh. And bloated fat cats will just get rich.

Itsa just wrong
38
15/12/2020 14:10:03 4 0
bbc
Stop and review it in line with newer technologies, like other says its out of date now let along by the time it gets finished. We are always on the back foot!
30
15/12/2020 13:57:27 57 4
bbc
Disagree with the time saving from leeds to london.

I live between wakefield and doncaster, both of which take 15 minutes to get to. The station for HS2 would take me over an hour to reach. Any saving by HS2 would be lost in travel to reach it.

Improving current lines would be cheaper and save more time.
62
15/12/2020 14:48:03 23 1
bbc
Good point - they don't seem to factor in the time to get to an HS2 station into the time savings. I live 15 mins from a West Coast mainline station but to use HS2 I would need to travel to Birmingham or Toton - probably an extra hours journey.
139
15/12/2020 16:48:46 2 0
bbc
Very true. It really only works if your start & endpoints are close to HS2. That may be true for quite a lot of people, but still a minority in the UK, even in England.
145
15/12/2020 17:04:07 2 0
bbc
Same sort of thing in Manchester

Also improving rolling staock and putting a few more carriages on would help.
26
15/12/2020 13:50:00 14 1
bbc
I think you're missing the point. We don't need better means of commuting to the capital to work, we need better jobs sharing round the country to reduce inequality. These days Leeds is a major financial hub and there are many well paid jobs.

However business leaders that I speak to all say the same - we want better connections between Northern cities.
31
15/12/2020 13:56:09 1 2
bbc
No you are missing the point. All over the world the largest cities always offer vastly more opportunities. It's not done by deliberate design, it's just the natural way things evolve. So having very good access to these cities is a really good thing for most.

Of course local business leaders don't want this, because they lose their captive cheap work force: not conjecture, I've seen it.
39
15/12/2020 14:10:19 1 0
bbc
Good access to London encourages businesses to setup outside of the capital. With the change in working practices having better access will encourage businesses to move out of London for cheaper property not the other way around.
32
15/12/2020 14:05:23 2 3
bbc
The cost of stopping HS2 now will be so high, it's unlikely to be worthwhile. They just need to improve the benefits where possible.
100
15/12/2020 15:40:42 1 0
bbc
There would be pay offs. But it is always better to stop it. It will be a money sink all the time it exists. Cut off the canker. Never employ those involved backing it ever again.
33
15/12/2020 14:06:14 4 1
bbc
The connections between Manchester to Leeds are Victorian.
37
15/12/2020 14:08:22 7 1
bbc
Agreed, i had to get the train Via Manc Victoria on the Bradford - Halifax line and it was 19 stops.
Nearly 2 hours for a 31 mile journey.

Shocking
27
15/12/2020 13:53:47 84 6
bbc
With so many people now working from home and using Microsoft Teams/Zoom etc there isn't the need for HS2.

Try using a Northern Rail train.
Filthy old trains leaking rain in etc.
That should be the priority.
34
15/12/2020 14:06:32 5 22
bbc
Check out the number of people still flying from London to Scotland, there is still demand even in a pandemic.
44
15/12/2020 14:14:45 10 1
bbc
Yeh but hs2 ain’t going to Scotland!
106
15/12/2020 15:47:58 5 1
bbc
Such demand, should be detered not enabled. Flying in particular needs heavy taxing. At least to the point it is twice as costly as the train, or taxi.
117
15/12/2020 16:00:38 2 1
bbc
Domestic flights such as London to Scotland should have massive tax applied to them, in fact most flights need taxing. they are way too cheap.
137
15/12/2020 16:45:32 1 1
bbc
Unsurprising when you consider the cost & travel time of other means, particularly rail; you'd probably end up having the cost of a night in a hotel too. HS2 doesn't get anywhere near Scotland, so using it for part of the journey, the speed benefit would be lost in the time it takes to change to a connecting train. It's an English project & mainly benefits those who can start or end in London.
35
15/12/2020 14:05:28 4 1
bbc
Before the start of this year I use to travel in excess of 20000 miles a year for business. COVID has changed all this. I have discovered there is no need to travel to London for meetings or rent office space because most of the work can be done online. Is saving 40 minutes on a journey from Sheffield to London going to be that important? Will it be affordable as costs continue to rise?
60
15/12/2020 14:34:48 1 3
bbc
It's not just about high speed. This is an additional line going north and south i.e. extra capacity.
36
15/12/2020 14:08:07 16 1
bbc
At last a report that shows some semblance of making sense! The North needs better connectivity between it's cities now not in 10-20 years time.
33
15/12/2020 14:06:14 4 1
bbc
The connections between Manchester to Leeds are Victorian.
37
15/12/2020 14:08:22 7 1
bbc
Agreed, i had to get the train Via Manc Victoria on the Bradford - Halifax line and it was 19 stops.
Nearly 2 hours for a 31 mile journey.

Shocking
29
15/12/2020 13:46:50 9 6
bbc
The HS2 that is scheculed to be delivered is all ready out of date technology . Its train on tracks! The steam train was invented in 1804. The HS2 Is jus tbigger and flashier and uses different fuel. We should be looking to invest in Hyperloop / Magnetic tec. Or at least fuel the trains with reneawable energy. The whole thing is tosh. And bloated fat cats will just get rich.

Itsa just wrong
38
15/12/2020 14:10:03 4 0
bbc
Stop and review it in line with newer technologies, like other says its out of date now let along by the time it gets finished. We are always on the back foot!
31
15/12/2020 13:56:09 1 2
bbc
No you are missing the point. All over the world the largest cities always offer vastly more opportunities. It's not done by deliberate design, it's just the natural way things evolve. So having very good access to these cities is a really good thing for most.

Of course local business leaders don't want this, because they lose their captive cheap work force: not conjecture, I've seen it.
39
15/12/2020 14:10:19 1 0
bbc
Good access to London encourages businesses to setup outside of the capital. With the change in working practices having better access will encourage businesses to move out of London for cheaper property not the other way around.
249
16/12/2020 15:30:57 0 0
bbc
Therefore not needing a high speed link to London!!
40
15/12/2020 14:10:46 11 2
bbc
HS2 is a basket case and should have been scrapped years ago. Its only use now is to line the pockets of useless contractors.
41
15/12/2020 14:11:18 22 1
bbc
HS2 was never a bad idea, but everyone with open eyes could see it should've been well down the list of public transport priorities, and was inevitably going to become a money pit

Electrification should always have been the number one priority, across the entire network, especially as it's been promised for generations, with a few new intercity links as this was being carried out
208
P2
15/12/2020 20:04:19 6 0
bbc
I disagree, I think it’s always been a bad idea. No point making such a fast line on a small densely built country. It would be better if the line was dedicated to freight which could be done cheaper and the left over change dedicated to fixing the existing passenger rail. Have a look at the number of people the business case assumes will travel, it’s extraordinary! No way that many will use it!
42
15/12/2020 14:13:57 33 1
bbc
If it could have been done on time and within budget then HS2 would have been a bold decision that could be applauded.

In fact the costs have tripled, the unforeseen issues are still cropping up and the public mood has gone from bland indifference to being angry enough to foam at the mouth every time its mentioned.

So whose going to get the blame for this Cluster truck?
77
15/12/2020 15:16:43 22 3
bbc
"So whose going to get the blame for this Cluster truck?"

You can guarantee it won't be any of the politicians involved, or any of the over 300 HS2 employees earning over £100,000 per year.
But when it comes to it, there'll be enough scapegoats thrown under buses to assuage a certain sector of the media and their rabid readership.
All while more billions disappear offshore, I've no doubt
28
15/12/2020 13:46:22 3 4
bbc
We need to do both. HS2 is to far gone to cancel now. Contracts signed, land cleared, Tunnel boarding machines paid for.
43
15/12/2020 14:14:07 4 0
bbc
Never too far. They can go bore somewhere else. Stonehenge or the Thames, maybe? There are no significant time savings unless you live next to the line.
214
15/12/2020 21:43:21 0 0
bbc
There will be once lon* distance trains are removed from commuter lines, freeing up slots, reducing delays.
34
15/12/2020 14:06:32 5 22
bbc
Check out the number of people still flying from London to Scotland, there is still demand even in a pandemic.
44
15/12/2020 14:14:45 10 1
bbc
Yeh but hs2 ain’t going to Scotland!
45
15/12/2020 14:16:08 5 1
bbc
HS2 would only serve to suck money OUT of the North. Covid-19 has proved that people do not need to travel as much for business. The claimed 1h8m Manchester to Euston is for just 2 trains a day each way that will run non-stop - the other services are much closer to the current 2h8m on the WCML. In the North, east west links are dire and this is where money is needed, not on this vanity project.
27
15/12/2020 13:53:47 84 6
bbc
With so many people now working from home and using Microsoft Teams/Zoom etc there isn't the need for HS2.

Try using a Northern Rail train.
Filthy old trains leaking rain in etc.
That should be the priority.
46
15/12/2020 14:16:10 2 0
bbc
No old trains now. And possible grand plans for new stations in the next few decades! Why does this stuff take so long?
18
MVP
15/12/2020 13:40:40 32 6
bbc
Upgrading the 40 year old rolling stock still used in the North has got to be the priority at the moment.

When that has been done we can then start thinking of something more ambitious
47
15/12/2020 14:17:56 3 0
bbc
The last sprinter has already rumbled
79
15/12/2020 15:19:56 5 0
bbc
It's the Pacers I think you mean which were those awful buses on rails that gave passengers an even more sickening ride than a shallow keeled fishing boat anchored perpendicular to tide and wind while it's blowing a force 8. Sprinters are still running I believe.
200
15/12/2020 19:15:29 0 0
bbc
Not down in Devon they haven’t. Sat in one out of Newton Abbot a few days ago
48
bdp
15/12/2020 14:18:06 12 3
bbc
What a suprise. Plus on another note if the current train running from Leeds to London only had 2 stops like HS2 is proposed to have you could probably save 30 minutes now
174
15/12/2020 18:00:29 3 1
bbc
That isn’t the main point of HS2. The main issue is capacity on the current network. The Leeds to London train couldn’t get to London quicker as lots of other trains are using the same track. On the East coast line as well as the Leeds train, trains are travelling from Scotland, Newcastle, Sunderland, and Hull to name a few are going down the same tracks, plus all the local trains
23
15/12/2020 13:45:05 8 4
bbc
This will never happen

The MPs from the north are crap at fighting our corner
49
15/12/2020 14:18:45 1 1
bbc
Yet when they regularly do, they are attacked for 'playing politics'

It's amazing how easily generations of smearing, whispering campaigns, and barefaced lying has become 'truth'
Is it the fault of a nation where London and the surrounding counties seems to be the only important area, soaking up most money, a predominantly right-wing press that attacks the regions at will, or both?!? ?????
24
15/12/2020 13:45:58 1 6
bbc
Railways always were a waste of money, no one will want to use them while we still have packhorses and stout boots.
50
Rob
15/12/2020 14:20:35 1 1
bbc
Railways carrier lots of freight what do you want more trucks on the road lots of other countries invest in railways
56
15/12/2020 14:31:27 1 0
bbc
Back to the canals for non time sensitive deliveries?
9
15/12/2020 13:24:53 100 11
bbc
Finally - a sensible voice. HS2 is a "by London for London" vanity project.
The north doesn't need it or want it. We don't want to go to London, rather we simply want to be able to travel around our home counties as easily as Southerners can travel around theirs.
Scrap HS2 now and give the £100Bn to the northern transport acceleration council.
51
15/12/2020 14:25:32 20 34
bbc
Nothing to do with 'London'. The blame for this fiasco is Johnson's and his Cartel.
82
15/12/2020 15:23:02 3 0
bbc
Sorry but try blaming Osborne. I wouldn't trust him further than I can throw him.
166
15/12/2020 17:50:52 1 0
bbc
Yes, but the majority of their decisions are London-centric. Just look at how long they kept London in Tier 2. They ALWAYS put London first.

Not Londons financial industry of course, they seem happy to throw that under the bus for the sake of Brexit.
205
15/12/2020 19:53:10 1 0
bbc
The government have got this wrong, but the planning for HS2 started years ago.
232
djf
16/12/2020 09:13:08 1 0
bbc
Utter cobblers. HS2 was proposed in 2009 under the last Labour shower of sh#$te.
True this lot have had the opportunity to cancel it, but because of the ridiculous contract clauses, they can't cancel it without paying out billions in compensation. Get the facts right before pointing the finger..
52
15/12/2020 14:25:40 5 5
bbc
When are people going to release this govt does not give a $hit about the North.
53
15/12/2020 14:25:56 6 0
bbc
So many people see HS2 as being about getting to London a few minutes earlier and that now WFH is upon us it won't be needed. Unfortunately that's how it's been sold to us. The reality is that the network desperately needs capacity for local services and the only way to do that is build more track.
Mind you we cannot build a shed in this country without a cost overrun.
54
15/12/2020 14:27:37 8 4
bbc
Another money spinner for the bullying Tory Mafia.
55
15/12/2020 14:29:49 7 0
bbc
Should also be no further money given to Crossrail.
50
Rob
15/12/2020 14:20:35 1 1
bbc
Railways carrier lots of freight what do you want more trucks on the road lots of other countries invest in railways
56
15/12/2020 14:31:27 1 0
bbc
Back to the canals for non time sensitive deliveries?
25
15/12/2020 13:47:00 27 10
bbc
HS2 must be scrapped, always designed to get people to London faster rather than the other way around. COVID has taught us that we do not need even bigger cities. Cancel it now.
57
15/12/2020 14:32:43 9 6
bbc
Wrong. Designed to increase capacity for a network that is basically chock full. We've just been sold on the time factor.
110
15/12/2020 15:50:51 2 1
bbc
No it never was. The original lie was speed. They only came up with the capacity lie later. HS2 is no part of any answer to a capacity question! This is the pet of politicians wanting to say to eu mates 'we have one too'. While shoveling train loads of money to mates in the process.
111
15/12/2020 15:51:00 0 0
bbc
Wrong. May have been full in the London centric business plans pre-COVID, supply will undoubtedly fall due to WFH change.
176
15/12/2020 18:04:18 1 0
bbc
They could increase capacity a lot cheaper without using super expensive 200mph trains.
58
15/12/2020 14:33:55 4 0
bbc
Stop wasting money on poorly managed 19th century technology.

Invest in something with a future!
59
15/12/2020 14:34:43 21 4
bbc
HS2 pre-Covid = complete waste of money

HS2 + Covid = a complete, utter cluster waste of money
35
15/12/2020 14:05:28 4 1
bbc
Before the start of this year I use to travel in excess of 20000 miles a year for business. COVID has changed all this. I have discovered there is no need to travel to London for meetings or rent office space because most of the work can be done online. Is saving 40 minutes on a journey from Sheffield to London going to be that important? Will it be affordable as costs continue to rise?
60
15/12/2020 14:34:48 1 3
bbc
It's not just about high speed. This is an additional line going north and south i.e. extra capacity.
96
15/12/2020 15:38:54 2 0
bbc
No that is the replacement lie. After they were ridiculed for the speed lie. If the question was capacity HS2 would never be the answer. At simplest an non fast energy guzzling line might be. One that actually stops so people can use it.

However, corvid has ended the capacity lie too! Working from home kills it. But even more of a killer is business not traveling any more but using Zoom etc.
61
15/12/2020 14:38:56 32 3
bbc
Time savings are an illusion. Most journeys start and end at places other than railway stations.

The only beneficiaries of HS2 will be the limited number who actually want to travel the route.

There are few stops on the way so it completely fails most people living along the route.

Other parts of the country get no benefit at all.
84
15/12/2020 15:27:06 10 5
bbc
It will increase capacity removing a lot of traffic around Birmingham on the existing network so that more local services can run and more goods trains can run. If you've never been sat in a train just outside of new street for an hour at peak time waiting for a platform to open up then you won't understand just how busy that part of network is. Missed connection to Derby obviously.
164
15/12/2020 17:48:42 2 1
bbc
You are missing the point, it isn’t about getting to London a few minutes quicker, it is to increase capacity on an overstretched network. HS2 will take traffic off other lines making them more efficient. It is a high speed line as if we have to build it we might as well, any new line would cost as much as HS2 even if the trains travelled slower
30
15/12/2020 13:57:27 57 4
bbc
Disagree with the time saving from leeds to london.

I live between wakefield and doncaster, both of which take 15 minutes to get to. The station for HS2 would take me over an hour to reach. Any saving by HS2 would be lost in travel to reach it.

Improving current lines would be cheaper and save more time.
62
15/12/2020 14:48:03 23 1
bbc
Good point - they don't seem to factor in the time to get to an HS2 station into the time savings. I live 15 mins from a West Coast mainline station but to use HS2 I would need to travel to Birmingham or Toton - probably an extra hours journey.
161
15/12/2020 17:39:23 3 3
bbc
You are missing the point, HS2 increases capacity. The fact that HS2 exists will take passengers off the existing network. In your case you wouldn’t use it, but it would be easier for you to travel on the existing line. To increase capacity on the existing lines would cost as much as HS2 as bridges would need replacing, additional track laid.
63
15/12/2020 14:51:03 17 1
bbc
Given the situation that the country finds itself in - and that working from home has been proven to work which will, in time, reduce the need to commute, HS2 is a white elephant.

Better to spend the money on infrastructure that the whole country would benefit from rather than the few who would use HS2.
64
15/12/2020 14:51:24 7 2
bbc
For HS2, private companies and underwriters should be taking the risk. There should be no involvement at all of public money. Do the Tory Mafia want to bleed us dry?
65
15/12/2020 14:55:36 3 1
bbc
Can you imagine what the costs of using what would in effect be a "toll railway" would be?

It'd be like a PFI to build a hospital - apparently "cheap" up front with crippling on-costs.
64
15/12/2020 14:51:24 7 2
bbc
For HS2, private companies and underwriters should be taking the risk. There should be no involvement at all of public money. Do the Tory Mafia want to bleed us dry?
65
15/12/2020 14:55:36 3 1
bbc
Can you imagine what the costs of using what would in effect be a "toll railway" would be?

It'd be like a PFI to build a hospital - apparently "cheap" up front with crippling on-costs.
67
15/12/2020 15:08:36 2 1
bbc
Thanks to Tony Blair for all those!
66
15/12/2020 15:00:24 12 6
bbc
Waste of money.

Half the country will see zero benefit from HS2 but will still have to pay the exorbitant and ever-increasing bill for it.
65
15/12/2020 14:55:36 3 1
bbc
Can you imagine what the costs of using what would in effect be a "toll railway" would be?

It'd be like a PFI to build a hospital - apparently "cheap" up front with crippling on-costs.
67
15/12/2020 15:08:36 2 1
bbc
Thanks to Tony Blair for all those!
188
15/12/2020 18:22:35 0 0
bbc
How many hospitals and schools have been built in the last two generations, heck outside London (and Manchester after the 1996 bombing), how much useful public infrastructure has actually been built?!?
Nowhere near enough??
68
15/12/2020 15:09:04 3 0
bbc
I live north of Newcastle and I and many others can see this for what it is.....
The money will dry up when the London to Birmingham stretch is completed.
The other links will not be "economically viable".
We are still awaiting the dualing of the A1 north of Alnwick, it has only been promised by various past governments since 1978 so no rush if London's orbital motorway needs another three lanes.
135
15/12/2020 16:44:55 0 0
bbc
There was a plan years ago to build a mega 8 lane road from London to Edinburgh. No idea what happened, but I have travelled many times the strech of the A1 you mention and in busy times, well, lets just say its not nice to be on.
69
15/12/2020 15:09:21 5 1
bbc
Halt hs2 now.
Fix northern rail connections.
Spend the rest paying off COVID debt.
70
15/12/2020 15:07:51 4 4
bbc
HS2 is a really stupid idea. If the main idea was ro reliee pressure on the existing lines, a much cheaper option would have been to build a slower line, that could have avoided nature reserves and some properties, and perhaps even had a few stations where they were actually needed. It is a hopeless vanity project that will keep increasing in cost, go way over timescale and be generally useless.
71
15/12/2020 15:10:11 0 0
bbc
It has been obvious for years Midlands to North and East West Nortern Rail needed investing. Going to be the usual rail investment compromise and all the projects will be ‘called in’ for a value for money review and nothing will happen for decades. Sad, but there we are
9
15/12/2020 13:24:53 100 11
bbc
Finally - a sensible voice. HS2 is a "by London for London" vanity project.
The north doesn't need it or want it. We don't want to go to London, rather we simply want to be able to travel around our home counties as easily as Southerners can travel around theirs.
Scrap HS2 now and give the £100Bn to the northern transport acceleration council.
72
15/12/2020 15:11:17 8 1
bbc
Scrap it Now, because like cross rail costs will continue to overrun and it will be a lot more than £100bln that we the taxpayer poor into this out of date idea. The World and travel have drastically changed and technology/wfh have been embraced the government needs to be brave enough to reassess our travel needs accordingly.
9
15/12/2020 13:24:53 100 11
bbc
Finally - a sensible voice. HS2 is a "by London for London" vanity project.
The north doesn't need it or want it. We don't want to go to London, rather we simply want to be able to travel around our home counties as easily as Southerners can travel around theirs.
Scrap HS2 now and give the £100Bn to the northern transport acceleration council.
73
15/12/2020 15:11:25 7 1
bbc
Those swingeing Beeching cuts look increasing folly with every decade that passes, those closed lines would come in real handy now for better public transport.
149
15/12/2020 17:09:08 2 0
bbc
I was thinking similarly before I read your post. Reinstate some of the more local and rural lines. There's going to be a lot of unemployed people in need of local services in order to be able to compete for new jobs and to be able to commute.

Commuting between London and Leeds isn't going to be in high demand.
150
15/12/2020 17:12:08 1 1
bbc
Ah, but many of the closed railways have now become excellent cycle routes, so still providing transport!
156
15/12/2020 17:32:11 0 0
bbc
Most of them don’t. I accept a few with hindsight shouldn’t have closed, but they are few and most are those near the big urban centres. The rural branch lines that were closed still won’t get enough traffic and would cost a fortune to run. The existing train system loses money pre pandemic
74
15/12/2020 15:11:33 3 0
bbc
I asked a ticket site for a train from Lincoln to Salford to arrive in time for a 10am meeting. The answer came that I should catch the 21:36 from Lincoln and sleep overnight in Sheffield station. For that privilege they wanted £112 return. That is for "scum" class with no legroom and no ability to work because Northern trains don't have any other class.
85
15/12/2020 15:32:52 2 0
bbc
Being from Boston and regularly traveled from Hereford back home before full relocation I felt your pain way too often. A missed connection at Birmingham meant not getting home or having my good lady pick me up in Lincoln or Grantham. ALL of it needs investment.
9
15/12/2020 13:24:53 100 11
bbc
Finally - a sensible voice. HS2 is a "by London for London" vanity project.
The north doesn't need it or want it. We don't want to go to London, rather we simply want to be able to travel around our home counties as easily as Southerners can travel around theirs.
Scrap HS2 now and give the £100Bn to the northern transport acceleration council.
75
PCS
15/12/2020 15:14:07 4 5
bbc
I agree the northern part of England is in dire need of this type of investment first, and since there's nowt on offer for Scotland / Wales / NI can the Scots be permitted indyref2 since not a penny of HS2 was coming in that direction.
92
15/12/2020 15:34:57 4 0
bbc
Or the west of England, or the south west, or East Anglia, or anywhere south of London......more people live south of London than in all of Scotland!
126
15/12/2020 16:21:14 1 0
bbc
The Scottish government are responsible for Scottish transport projects, including the railways.
76
15/12/2020 15:14:12 6 2
bbc
HS2. A 20th century project. We're now in the 21st century, the digital century.
42
15/12/2020 14:13:57 33 1
bbc
If it could have been done on time and within budget then HS2 would have been a bold decision that could be applauded.

In fact the costs have tripled, the unforeseen issues are still cropping up and the public mood has gone from bland indifference to being angry enough to foam at the mouth every time its mentioned.

So whose going to get the blame for this Cluster truck?
77
15/12/2020 15:16:43 22 3
bbc
"So whose going to get the blame for this Cluster truck?"

You can guarantee it won't be any of the politicians involved, or any of the over 300 HS2 employees earning over £100,000 per year.
But when it comes to it, there'll be enough scapegoats thrown under buses to assuage a certain sector of the media and their rabid readership.
All while more billions disappear offshore, I've no doubt
152
15/12/2020 17:16:13 1 1
bbc
I think you will find that it isn't a party political issue. In fact reading BTL comments readers of the Mail are probably more anti than are readers of the Guardian.
78
15/12/2020 15:18:54 4 1
bbc
Nobody needs HS2 other than the land owners who are going to sell to property developers in northern cities.

Just add some decent toilets and good broadband to the intercity trains - and a bit of leg room wouldn't go amiss.
47
15/12/2020 14:17:56 3 0
bbc
The last sprinter has already rumbled
79
15/12/2020 15:19:56 5 0
bbc
It's the Pacers I think you mean which were those awful buses on rails that gave passengers an even more sickening ride than a shallow keeled fishing boat anchored perpendicular to tide and wind while it's blowing a force 8. Sprinters are still running I believe.
80
15/12/2020 15:20:24 5 3
bbc
The graphic sums up the problem; only times to London are counted. Northern cities need connecting to other Northern cities to really drive regeneration and growth. Link Liverpool Manchester Leeds Hull and Newcastle with high speed rail to see real economic benefits.
81
15/12/2020 15:21:34 6 3
bbc
Couldn't agree more witn scrapping this vanity project.

After Covid and Brexit, no-one will be able to afford the tickets anyway and all (bar business) will travel the slightly slower but much cheaper existing train route.

It's not as if the UK won't be utterly bankrupt after covid & no-deal brexit.... oh wait...
51
15/12/2020 14:25:32 20 34
bbc
Nothing to do with 'London'. The blame for this fiasco is Johnson's and his Cartel.
82
15/12/2020 15:23:02 3 0
bbc
Sorry but try blaming Osborne. I wouldn't trust him further than I can throw him.
123
15/12/2020 16:16:50 2 0
bbc
I'm sure Osborne has his contacts as well!
83
15/12/2020 15:23:27 2 2
bbc
Northerners and Southerners especially if young need housing before high speed rail. If you want regional policy that is what the EU were good at but our own government were and are shocking at.
61
15/12/2020 14:38:56 32 3
bbc
Time savings are an illusion. Most journeys start and end at places other than railway stations.

The only beneficiaries of HS2 will be the limited number who actually want to travel the route.

There are few stops on the way so it completely fails most people living along the route.

Other parts of the country get no benefit at all.
84
15/12/2020 15:27:06 10 5
bbc
It will increase capacity removing a lot of traffic around Birmingham on the existing network so that more local services can run and more goods trains can run. If you've never been sat in a train just outside of new street for an hour at peak time waiting for a platform to open up then you won't understand just how busy that part of network is. Missed connection to Derby obviously.
175
15/12/2020 18:01:32 2 0
bbc
They could increase capacity without the expense of HS2. It's just laying regular track for regular trains to run on isn't as sexy as wasting goodness know how many billions of pounds of our money.

The waste doesn't end when HS2 is built. Running it will be subsidised by govt, because it'll never pay for itself.
228
16/12/2020 06:39:51 1 0
bbc
No it won't because 95% of people will not be able to afford to travel on it so the demand on the existing network will not change. Investment in 21st century signalling would provide the same increase in capacity at a fraction of the cost.
74
15/12/2020 15:11:33 3 0
bbc
I asked a ticket site for a train from Lincoln to Salford to arrive in time for a 10am meeting. The answer came that I should catch the 21:36 from Lincoln and sleep overnight in Sheffield station. For that privilege they wanted £112 return. That is for "scum" class with no legroom and no ability to work because Northern trains don't have any other class.
85
15/12/2020 15:32:52 2 0
bbc
Being from Boston and regularly traveled from Hereford back home before full relocation I felt your pain way too often. A missed connection at Birmingham meant not getting home or having my good lady pick me up in Lincoln or Grantham. ALL of it needs investment.
86
15/12/2020 15:32:58 1 1
bbc
So HS2 will be late and expensive........well duh!.......it's a train, what do you expect.
21
15/12/2020 13:42:24 17 9
bbc
HS2 only made sense when HS1 would link Continental Europe to the midlands. Europe is now much less important and that means HS2 is simply not needed. One thing Covid-19 has taught the world is that face-to-face business meetings are also not needed anymore, which means HS2 is just a total waste of money.
87
15/12/2020 15:33:33 0 0
bbc
It depends on whether you are buying or selling.
88
15/12/2020 15:33:33 0 0
bbc
Scrap HS2 and invest in improving public Transport between and around Cities. With the rest of the money saved being invested in improving the housing stock particularly in insulating older houses so that Gas boilers can realistically be phased out without crippling costs to homeowners
89
15/12/2020 15:34:23 1 2
bbc
HS2 benifit per £ = 0.70p = build
HS2 cycleway benifit per£ = 4.80 = scraped.
The cycleway was scraped almost within weeks after being passed by goverment.
The goverments own benifit ratio means HS2 should not be built under treasury rules.
90
15/12/2020 15:34:36 1 0
bbc
While I'm broadly in favour of HS2, it's disingenuous to argue that Nottingham to London will be cut from 100 to 65 minutes. It will be 65 minutes from Toton (i.e. the middle of nowhere) to London and getting between Nottingham and Toton will wipe out most if not all of the time saving. East Midlands Parkway is a much better location but that doesn't mean the line shouldn't still go on to Leeds.
91
15/12/2020 15:34:42 1 3
bbc
HS2 is a fanancial pandemic in the making ...........scrap it please !
75
PCS
15/12/2020 15:14:07 4 5
bbc
I agree the northern part of England is in dire need of this type of investment first, and since there's nowt on offer for Scotland / Wales / NI can the Scots be permitted indyref2 since not a penny of HS2 was coming in that direction.
92
15/12/2020 15:34:57 4 0
bbc
Or the west of England, or the south west, or East Anglia, or anywhere south of London......more people live south of London than in all of Scotland!
157
15/12/2020 17:33:33 0 0
bbc
There is already a good train system south of London with numerous lines
93
15/12/2020 15:35:45 3 0
bbc
As a small nation, we should be utterly ashamed of ourselves in our scope of this project and more to the point, timing. This should have been done decades ago and all the way to Scotland and into Wales by now. A short line to Birmingham? Pathetic! Political ping pong over the years causing delays and stuttered plans and now a swollen budget to boot. Salvage what you can.
94
15/12/2020 15:36:07 3 0
bbc
HS2 Needs to be a direct line through Birmingham, through Manchester, through Leeds on to Scotand. This will also answer the across North problem with adding Liverpool to Manchseter and Leeds to Hull as extensions.
95
15/12/2020 15:38:01 1 3
bbc
To many HS2 is a vanity project, but to make train travel fast and efficient, HS2 is a must. Freight uses the rail infrastructure 24 hrs a day, you cannot run an efficient railway system anywhere - based on Victorian infrastructure, the two are incompatible. The Northern Powerhouse in all aspects must be underway as its been talked about for over 10 yrs, the UK Government must get a move on.
101
15/12/2020 15:42:28 0 0
bbc
Hi Bonkers, I don't disagree, but the plan in it's current form is liable to excess bloating of the budget and traumatic situations for what I perceive to be little gain. We need a rethink and more expansive on scope, replan and deploy to a non political sphere of influence to allow the project to run with minimal interference. The goals then are not the goals now. btw, I do live in the north
60
15/12/2020 14:34:48 1 3
bbc
It's not just about high speed. This is an additional line going north and south i.e. extra capacity.
96
15/12/2020 15:38:54 2 0
bbc
No that is the replacement lie. After they were ridiculed for the speed lie. If the question was capacity HS2 would never be the answer. At simplest an non fast energy guzzling line might be. One that actually stops so people can use it.

However, corvid has ended the capacity lie too! Working from home kills it. But even more of a killer is business not traveling any more but using Zoom etc.
97
15/12/2020 15:39:38 3 2
bbc
Isambard Kingdom Brunel will be turning over in his grave.

Just build the fudging thing.
115
15/12/2020 15:56:38 1 2
bbc
IKB was using PRIVATE funding, not endless Government handouts for "unforseen cost overruns" as well as "ficticious journey times". If HS2 is so good and so "necessary" then let the private sector build it with purely private investment - just like every single mile of railway was built in the UK until World War 2. I have no idea why the Government is funding this white elephant........
98
15/12/2020 15:40:00 4 1
bbc
Who the hell wants to travel to London, move the jobs to the midlands and North a lot better option and cheaper as business will pick up some of the bill
99
DG
15/12/2020 15:40:40 4 3
bbc
The HS2 project should be put to the public. £106bn will turn into £212bn, in fact they probably already know the figure will increase massively, but won't tell us.
Other rail/road infrastructure and clean energy projects can be implemented with the current figure of £106bn and we will have change.

An honest answer is required to the question, 'who will benefit from HS2'.
244
16/12/2020 15:20:49 1 0
bbc
People on expenses!!
32
15/12/2020 14:05:23 2 3
bbc
The cost of stopping HS2 now will be so high, it's unlikely to be worthwhile. They just need to improve the benefits where possible.
100
15/12/2020 15:40:42 1 0
bbc
There would be pay offs. But it is always better to stop it. It will be a money sink all the time it exists. Cut off the canker. Never employ those involved backing it ever again.