'France is our grand final of 2020'
28/11/2020
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sport
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rugbyunion
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England head coach Eddie Jones says his side have still not reached their peak as they prepare to face France in the Autumn Nations Cup final.
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clams
28/11/2020 19:44:34
6
19
bbc
Boring rugby, kick kick kick.
The breakdown rules, which are intended to speed the game up, are full of unintended consequences. Players are frightened to go wide in case they get isolated and then jackeled (spelling ?). The safer option is to kick or keep driving into the middle where the support is. Rethink lawmakers ?
Well said. It's a forwards game now, tries get scored almost unseen under a pile of bodies, drive after drive where the ball is rarely seen, the whole character of big games have changed. Passing to the backs is a risk so it's arial ping-pong, position over possession. Doesn't make for an exciting game even when your team win. Big meaty players are dominating as crafty nimble weavers aren't picked
It has always been the case that players who get isolated are likely to lose the ball. In modern times they lose it a bit sooner than previously because they are no longer allowed to hang on to it for dear life once they have been tackled. The huge increase in playing standards since the game went professional means that modern teams must also protect their possession much more carefully.
Nice to pound the provinces again.
Removed
A very flat England performance. How much longer can Billy Vunipola keep Simmonds out?! He is a shadow of the player he used to be.
And yet still preferable to Sam Simmons. Tells you all you need to know
He does a lot of the "grunt" that Simmonds is not great at. He's competing with Curry, Underhill, Earle, Willis and the other Curry. He suits the Exeter style , not sure about England. Open to opinion !
Simmonds doesn’t fit the England mould, he’s lacking ballast for getting the upper hand up close. He’s brilliant but not what England can use.
Billy Vunipola, made 11 carries, double any other England player, broke the gain line on all 11 occasions, Simmons is great, but cannot do what Billy does for England, bashing into 3 international defenders and braking the gain line. Also Vunipola has only played 5 games since breaking his arm, give him 5 more and then compare.
Sam S is the best No8 in English rugby, & given the quality in the Premiership, that's saying something. EJ has made a mistake not picking him. SS has every quality reqd at intl level, his omission is an EJ selection error & nothing more. Meanwhile, Chiefs are benefiting from Sam's speed, power & try scoring skills.
Simmonds got another two tries this weekend. superb player who deserves his chance if jones doesnt rate him does he have a scottish granny?
I agree, SS should walk in to this England side on his current form.
Simmons is good if you can bring him on and off at certain times. If the team stuck for ideas and going backwards Billy V can rescue the situation with solid yards straight up the guts wet or dry, and defend hard against bohemoths like himself. Simons could probably double as a reserve back, which says it all
I have been very critical of Billy V., but I actually thought that was the best he has played for ages. He did carry much better. That said, I'd love to see Simmonds and Dombrandt given a chance. I don't understand why EJ prefers Earl to Simmonds on the bench.
Nice to pound the provinces again.
Removed
What about only allowing kicks from within your own 22 ?
Not just unexciting rugby but dreadful coverage from Prime. Reminded me of the French camera work from 20 years ago. Sadly nothing to remind us of the French flare or Welsh wizardry from 20 or 30 years ago. England - very strong up front but lacking imagination. Why does the petulant England captain come across as so uninspiring?
20 years ago Wales were regularly losing very badly to teams. Perhaps 50 years ago
Why petulant Dan ? What about AWJ and Biggar ? They should concentrate on their own game instead of constant whining, whinging and petulance
I switched over to S4C and watched the 2nd half with Welsh commentary. ??
That’s probably because you don’t like him or the club he plays for!
Because he's a one trick pony !
Simmonds is more than capable of doing the "grunt". BV is not dynamic enough to break tackles and make the yardage that he once did. He also is losing a lot of ball in contact.
Offers nothing in the lineout.
It's time to look elsewhere at 8.
Offers nothing in the lineout.
It's time to look elsewhere at 8.
I love the fact Eddie never comes over as a smug arrogant know it all. He never acts like the ‘small man’ he is. What a guy.
Not just unexciting rugby but dreadful coverage from Prime. Reminded me of the French camera work from 20 years ago. Sadly nothing to remind us of the French flare or Welsh wizardry from 20 or 30 years ago. England - very strong up front but lacking imagination. Why does the petulant England captain come across as so uninspiring?
Not just unexciting rugby but dreadful coverage from Prime. Reminded me of the French camera work from 20 years ago. Sadly nothing to remind us of the French flare or Welsh wizardry from 20 or 30 years ago. England - very strong up front but lacking imagination. Why does the petulant England captain come across as so uninspiring?
Not just unexciting rugby but dreadful coverage from Prime. Reminded me of the French camera work from 20 years ago. Sadly nothing to remind us of the French flare or Welsh wizardry from 20 or 30 years ago. England - very strong up front but lacking imagination. Why does the petulant England captain come across as so uninspiring?
Don't think England will be too happy with that win against a Welash team missing so many first team starters, Jon Davies,Navidi, Tipuric, Moriarty, Ken Owens, Liam Williams to name a few .....
And yet the new boys played better than the first team starters have for quite some time.
England put in a more convincing win against the 1st team starters than they did against the new boys.
Would you drop Faletau then, the back 3 of 1/2p, Zammit and Adams would not have been hugely improved by cheap shot, and JD2 looks well past his sell by date.
Do you mean "to name all of them" rather than "a few", or are there other first team starters missing?
Do you mean "to name all of them" rather than "a few", or are there other first team starters missing?
These so called absentees are just a smoke screen
Jon Davies and Liam Williams have done nothing this year when fit
Moriarty and Navidi are nothing special either
Jon Davies and Liam Williams have done nothing this year when fit
Moriarty and Navidi are nothing special either
Tuilagi and Nowell are missing and Watson and Cowan Dickie aren’t yet fully fit
From it's deathbed League has cursed Union.
Removed
And willed it it's free weights and roids.
So what is the welsh for "NUMBERS"?
Not sure if it was lacking precision or more lacking ambition ?
65% possession in the first half and a 4 point lead .... almost as if they didn’t know what to do with it as so much of their game is based on kicking.
65% possession in the first half and a 4 point lead .... almost as if they didn’t know what to do with it as so much of their game is based on kicking.
Agree that Billy doesn't look like he has the dynamism to break tackles anymore. He looks overweight and is slow from a standing start, and should be dropped
The trouble is when he does come onto the ball at pace, he now slows down and does a little shuffle, losing all his momentum.
Still think symonds is a bit light weight for an international 8
I'd go for Dombrandt
The trouble is when he does come onto the ball at pace, he now slows down and does a little shuffle, losing all his momentum.
Still think symonds is a bit light weight for an international 8
I'd go for Dombrandt
Saving it for the final. A grand slam and a 2nd 6 nations title beckons, all in 1 year.
???????????????????????????????????? yeah ????????????
Saving it for the final. A grand slam and a 2nd 6 nations title beckons, all in 1 year.
From it's deathbed League has cursed Union.
I love the fact Eddie never comes over as a smug arrogant know it all. He never acts like the ‘small man’ he is. What a guy.
You Sir, win the reposte of the day award for that one. Bravo, bravo indeed!
Not quite, amazingly Italy are still counted as Tier 1, so Wales are 7 from 8 against tier 1 nations, and 2 of those were last year.
So Wales aren't quite as bad as you make out, although when a 5th/6th play-off against Italy in a meaningless tournament becomes a massive game, all is not well.
So Wales aren't quite as bad as you make out, although when a 5th/6th play-off against Italy in a meaningless tournament becomes a massive game, all is not well.
Sour grapes from Jones. England don’t win by a cricket score and it is entirety their fault, nothing to do with the Welsh performance. With the strength in depth and talent pool that England have, I think Jones’s record is not that impressive. Any decent top coach could run England.
yaaawwwwnnn!
Well most "decent top coaches" have failed to do so consistently over the years, despite England's always-mentioned player depth and talent pool.
Do you know what Jones record is? You dont think that's impressive? Jeez what do you want?!
It looked like England weren't used to having so much possession. The game was fairly boring as there was little competition across the pitch and especially at set pieces. Bring on France and a better game!
I agree that playing France will bring a much better performance from England
Simmonds is more than capable of doing the "grunt". BV is not dynamic enough to break tackles and make the yardage that he once did. He also is losing a lot of ball in contact.
Offers nothing in the lineout.
It's time to look elsewhere at 8.
Offers nothing in the lineout.
It's time to look elsewhere at 8.
Sour grapes from Jones. England don’t win by a cricket score and it is entirety their fault, nothing to do with the Welsh performance. With the strength in depth and talent pool that England have, I think Jones’s record is not that impressive. Any decent top coach could run England.
This sort of comment makes me laugh, as you only have to see the performance of Simmonds (and the rest of the chiefs pack) when they came up against Sale or Bath. You can't honestly say that Simmonds was worse.
You mean the European player of the year? Crikey what award did BV win? "Best Player in the Universe"?
That was the dullest rugby match I have ever watched. England were so much better than Wales, but still insisted playing low risk rugby. Credit to wales for sticking in there, but just so poor to watch.
Sour grapes from Jones. England don’t win by a cricket score and it is entirety their fault, nothing to do with the Welsh performance. With the strength in depth and talent pool that England have, I think Jones’s record is not that impressive. Any decent top coach could run England.
Not just unexciting rugby but dreadful coverage from Prime. Reminded me of the French camera work from 20 years ago. Sadly nothing to remind us of the French flare or Welsh wizardry from 20 or 30 years ago. England - very strong up front but lacking imagination. Why does the petulant England captain come across as so uninspiring?
The big difference between the sides was the skill levels of the tight 5's. Wales almost matched England for grunt, but not a single member of their 5 had decent hands or the ability to pass in contact. Pivac needs to find big forwards with skills or they are going nowhere.
The big difference was the ref or were you watching a different game
From what I saw, the Welsh front row had a preconceived cheating "game plan" as they knew they could not compete fairly at the scrum - and thought they would get away with it.
Fortunately, ref spotted it straight away, and it was only in last 20 it was abandoned (and Welsh scrum held its own, anyway).
No to cheats.
Fortunately, ref spotted it straight away, and it was only in last 20 it was abandoned (and Welsh scrum held its own, anyway).
No to cheats.
Look at Pivac crying about the result. Sour grapes! So funny. A very graceless man to manage a very graceless team. As England surge forward without needing to get out of 2nd gear, Wales head back into the doldrums. Perfect.
Obviously watched a different game to the one I did. England deserved to win but should not have needed so much help from M. Poite.
This demonstrates your lack of grace. The better team won but TV play backs reveal that the referee got it wrong. It is clear that Biggar was taken out in the air and his decision led to an England try. The referee had a poor game and I include his decision to ignore the TMO and the knock on that led to Wales' first try. Methinks less booze whilst the monkey in you catches up with humanity.
Thought Itoje easily won the contest between him and Alwyn Jones.
Jones wasn't even the best Welsh 2nd row
Absolutely. Time for AWJ to call it a day at international level. Fantastic player at his best and a great captain.
If he hadn't been trying to tell the ref the rules I wouldn't have noticed he was playing
The old fella managed 15 tackles, was still bounding around at final whistle, hardly past it
and whats your evidence for that, other than your red rose tinted glasses? Have you seen the stats? Not a great deal to separate the two of them and given that Itoje is in his prime and AWJ is 35 then your assertion is pretty baseless.
Stephen Jones in The Times rated AWJ 8 as opposed to MI's 7. Whilst I don't have much time for SJ, I don't think he is far out in his rating. The trolls always pick AWJ out for criticism. Why? Probably because he's welsh. Also probably because they don't see his work rate - something to do with not really understanding the game.
Look at Pivac crying about the result. Sour grapes! So funny. A very graceless man to manage a very graceless team. As England surge forward without needing to get out of 2nd gear, Wales head back into the doldrums. Perfect.
How many different countries shirts have you actually got?! Every team England play and beat must make you a nightmare to live with, even when your team beat Georgia!
Lack of sense of humour personified
Btw does it make it awkward to hate the English so much when you have so many English pla?
Mate some English fans use deliberate arrogance to fire back at all the hatred aimed toward us. It’s the “No-one likes us we don’t care” attitude. I can see where they are coming from - as an Anglo-Welsh (proudly) Englishman, the bile we receive mainly from Scots and Welsh is quite horrendous.
The big difference between the sides was the skill levels of the tight 5's. Wales almost matched England for grunt, but not a single member of their 5 had decent hands or the ability to pass in contact. Pivac needs to find big forwards with skills or they are going nowhere.
You obviously were!
Only watched the highlights. Biggar will get himself hurt jumping into people knees up. Deliberate tactic. Ref got that right. His technique has been figured out. EDs hit was fair hit the ball and attackers arms bounced off and luckily for both missed his head. Didnt see the scrums. But click bait headlines journalists please stop bbc i pay your wages pls stop...
Sour grapes from Jones. England don’t win by a cricket score and it is entirety their fault, nothing to do with the Welsh performance. With the strength in depth and talent pool that England have, I think Jones’s record is not that impressive. Any decent top coach could run England.
Simmonds is more than capable of doing the "grunt". BV is not dynamic enough to break tackles and make the yardage that he once did. He also is losing a lot of ball in contact.
Offers nothing in the lineout.
It's time to look elsewhere at 8.
Offers nothing in the lineout.
It's time to look elsewhere at 8.
Agree that Billy doesn't look like he has the dynamism to break tackles anymore. He looks overweight and is slow from a standing start, and should be dropped
The trouble is when he does come onto the ball at pace, he now slows down and does a little shuffle, losing all his momentum.
Still think symonds is a bit light weight for an international 8
I'd go for Dombrandt
The trouble is when he does come onto the ball at pace, he now slows down and does a little shuffle, losing all his momentum.
Still think symonds is a bit light weight for an international 8
I'd go for Dombrandt
Jones was the only Welsh 2nd row - Ball and Rowlands are both English.
Have you ever thought about making an observation about the rugby instead of running down players, like your namesake your actual knowledge of rugby is pretty poor
Simmonds is outstanding for Exeter, but the Chiefs generally pick two enormous flankers - 2 from Ewers (over 19st), Armand (over 18st) Vermulen (17st 8).
Rugby is about the best combinations, so although Simmonds is the best English #8, the question is whether Curry, Underhill, Simmonds is the best English back row.
Rugby is about the best combinations, so although Simmonds is the best English #8, the question is whether Curry, Underhill, Simmonds is the best English back row.
Simmonds wont win us a game vs SA. A fit billy will. IF he gets fit billy is the best in the world. Billy was a one man pack 3 years ago. Jones has a style and a team balance to think about. Simmonds is unlucky but we are blessed with a great crop of players.
Not just unexciting rugby but dreadful coverage from Prime. Reminded me of the French camera work from 20 years ago. Sadly nothing to remind us of the French flare or Welsh wizardry from 20 or 30 years ago. England - very strong up front but lacking imagination. Why does the petulant England captain come across as so uninspiring?
As a Bristolian living just across the river it’s always an important date in the calendar. I really don’t mind the style in which we win. I will wake up with a smile on my face tomorrow - the silence from across the Severn will be deafening.
I think you overestimate the performance cycle... 2023 is went it matters. Experimenting and losing now is not a need for deafening silence.
Chin up. It’s only 7/7 losses against tier 1 opposition this year.
Chin up. It’s only 7/7 losses against tier 1 opposition this year.
Look at Pivac crying about the result. Sour grapes! So funny. A very graceless man to manage a very graceless team. As England surge forward without needing to get out of 2nd gear, Wales head back into the doldrums. Perfect.
Agree that Billy doesn't look like he has the dynamism to break tackles anymore. He looks overweight and is slow from a standing start, and should be dropped
The trouble is when he does come onto the ball at pace, he now slows down and does a little shuffle, losing all his momentum.
Still think symonds is a bit light weight for an international 8
I'd go for Dombrandt
The trouble is when he does come onto the ball at pace, he now slows down and does a little shuffle, losing all his momentum.
Still think symonds is a bit light weight for an international 8
I'd go for Dombrandt
Maybe he's a closet winger.
What about only allowing kicks from within your own 22 ?
I'm an England fan but if the game continues like this the whole game will die. In 80 mins we had less than 2 of back play. Rugby is about spaces not faces, swerves, sidesteps and dummies not putting your face up someones backside or trying NOT to have the ball.
I don't think the rule changes have helped.... Lions will be interesting to see where we are against the power of the Boks
you're right. Jones just wants forward domination and Farrell kicking, and when that doesn't work there's no plan B. Backs are just there to make up numbers. A team with good forwards and a playmaker 10 will smash us.
If you watch how NZ played today you would change your mind. Brilliant back play
Watched rugby for 40 years.. first time at Twickenham was a 12-12 draw against Argentina... why people think that rugby union is all about tries is beyond me.. never has been.. never will be
Excellent comment. Not going to attract new fans is it?
I think I will go and watch league. Can anybody remember when a scrum did not end in a penalty, was it last year or the year before?
England tight 5 streets ahead of Wales and now the back row is superior. Luckily for Wales, OF left his kicking boots at home.
LRZ looks class and has ended North's career. Wales backs need a better pack but the talent coming through means they have a tough few years ahead....
LRZ looks class and has ended North's career. Wales backs need a better pack but the talent coming through means they have a tough few years ahead....
I'm an England fan but if the game continues like this the whole game will die. In 80 mins we had less than 2 of back play. Rugby is about spaces not faces, swerves, sidesteps and dummies not putting your face up someones backside or trying NOT to have the ball.
Rule changes were made to encourage attacking teams to recycle ball quicker, but it seems to have passed by those making the rules that it also encourages the defending teams to slow that same recycling. Problems are:
1) it’s easier to slow it down than speed it up &
2) even when it’s quicker, it’s more likely, eventually, mistakes occur
It’s too heavily weighted to defense & killing the game
1) it’s easier to slow it down than speed it up &
2) even when it’s quicker, it’s more likely, eventually, mistakes occur
It’s too heavily weighted to defense & killing the game
It is entirely reasonable that every time a tackle is made or a breakdown occurs that there should be a contest for possession - that is a fundamental part of the game. Recent law changes have attempted to make that contest more open, but it will always be a trial of strength and therefore may take a moment to resolve. If you want uncontested possession, go and watch American football.
Do you know what Jones record is? You dont think that's impressive? Jeez what do you want?!
Was a Snorefest..........running around like.....??
As a neutral I didn't thing Wales did enough to win - but England def helped by some poor decisions (or non decisions) from French ref and TMO assistants. England should have had at least two yellow cards - with one possibly a red. And some of the scrum decisions awarded to England were just baffling.
TMO ? If viewers at home could see Genge headbutting what was the TMO doing..... reading texts from Eddie probably
As a neutral? Come on now. There was a knock on for Wales' try and the deliberate knock on by Dee which should've been a yellow. Daly tackle on Adams fine. Although we all know you're peddling your usual anti-English rhetoric.
Beating Wales by that score in their own back yard when not playing particularly well is something we would have taken on many previous occasions. Perspective?
50/50.... Wales have 10 players missing..... Eddie is stifling England.... with that pack the English backs should run riot and score tries for fun.... instead it’s kick after kick and it’s boring.... Warrenball if others play that way....
I don’t know. I would have taken it, but my perspective has been swayed. Check out Walesonline. Genge nutted someone, Daley should have had a straight red, someone swore at Bigger and the ref was paid off
by the Twickenham suits.
Add up all that and I’m now not so sure we deserved it.
by the Twickenham suits.
Add up all that and I’m now not so sure we deserved it.
It's a 4 year development cycle for all teams england are in a good place as a young squad. Only issue maybe scrum half on the age profile. Wales are transitioning in a bigger way due to the age profile. For example will AWJ last? Botham looks good.... and parks is topping up his pension in japan. England France cant wait....
Bloody hell that Louis Rees Zammit is quick!
Best wing at Gloucester they say...... don’t know about Thoreley as Eddie let’s him rot on the vine..... the old fella May was good v Ireland but 79th minute today was tackled by AWJ..... May must be slowing down with age.... or AWJ still has a great engine....
Not that quick Farrell caught him once!
A bolter for the lions I’d say . He will be great on hard grounds
Like Roman as ref, leaves a bit of grey area but he did miss tackle in air and neck/seatbelt take but it didn't change the result. England really Strong across the pitch and was expecting a tw*ting. Defence was better but we need to get over again line like England were able to do.
Law 9.17 "A player must not tackle, charge, pull, push or grasp an opponent whose feet are off the ground". Watch the footage, match clock around 13' 43". Biggar falls onto Underhill who, unable to move out of the way, stands still and makes no movement, but breaks Biggar's fall. There was no foul play. It turns out, unsurprisingly, that the referee knows the laws better than you do.
???????????????????????????????????? yeah ????????????
Do you know what Jones record is? You dont think that's impressive? Jeez what do you want?!
Dad was stationed in Ohio with the RAF, hardly makes him American, try a little harder.
Not good enough for the NFL or Welsh rugby so had to settle for playing for England.
The American boy with English parents.
The Welsh team all afternoon were squealing to the referee about every decision he gave against Wales. If Biggar was taken out, then the Welsh try was a definite knock on . Swings and roundabouts. Farrell missed 3 easy kicks and England were awesome going forward and in defence. Sampson Lee was like a kiddies rag doll useless. England left 40 points out there unscored. Wales are a tier 2 side !
England were better - but if that's the best they can do against a developing Welsh team that is missing 8 likely starters, I wouldn't so up your self.
England deserved to win; looking forward to the 6 nations.
Would like to further discuss your comments, but won't be allowed to. Enjoy your win.
Would like to further discuss your comments, but won't be allowed to. Enjoy your win.
Francis mentioned being headbutted but Poite marched him back 10.... no doubt Genge will be feted as a hero...... silly sausage
I'm an England fan but if the game continues like this the whole game will die. In 80 mins we had less than 2 of back play. Rugby is about spaces not faces, swerves, sidesteps and dummies not putting your face up someones backside or trying NOT to have the ball.
The Welsh team all afternoon were squealing to the referee about every decision he gave against Wales. If Biggar was taken out, then the Welsh try was a definite knock on . Swings and roundabouts. Farrell missed 3 easy kicks and England were awesome going forward and in defence. Sampson Lee was like a kiddies rag doll useless. England left 40 points out there unscored. Wales are a tier 2 side !
Never going to get a game when the ref is so inconsistent. Ignored the tackle in the air, ignored welsh front row bottling on english put in, wales got away with laying over ball in ruck (cant blame them if not pulled up). Both sides failed by inconsistent ref. Ford kicked poorly, so many welsh marks able to be called.
Spot on comment. You sound as if you actually know the game (unlike so many who comment on here). ??
Agreed. Poite had a shocker. Missed so many issues and unnecessarily overruled others.
Well done to England but they almost looked scared to go through simple recycling phases, instead kicking aimlessly. When the did recycle Wales looked really stretched.
Well done to England but they almost looked scared to go through simple recycling phases, instead kicking aimlessly. When the did recycle Wales looked really stretched.
There was no tackle in the air, Underhill stood still and Biggar fell on him, the ref's decision was quite correct. Poite was perfectly consistent, both in his application of offside (generous to defenders), his reffing of the scrums (the player who moves first is the one who causes the collapse), and his enforcement at the breakdown (allowed both sides a long time to release and roll away).
The Welsh team all afternoon were squealing to the referee about every decision he gave against Wales. If Biggar was taken out, then the Welsh try was a definite knock on . Swings and roundabouts. Farrell missed 3 easy kicks and England were awesome going forward and in defence. Sampson Lee was like a kiddies rag doll useless. England left 40 points out there unscored. Wales are a tier 2 side !
Beating Wales by that score in their own back yard when not playing particularly well is something we would have taken on many previous occasions. Perspective?
The Welsh team all afternoon were squealing to the referee about every decision he gave against Wales. If Biggar was taken out, then the Welsh try was a definite knock on . Swings and roundabouts. Farrell missed 3 easy kicks and England were awesome going forward and in defence. Sampson Lee was like a kiddies rag doll useless. England left 40 points out there unscored. Wales are a tier 2 side !
Sour grapes from Jones. England don’t win by a cricket score and it is entirety their fault, nothing to do with the Welsh performance. With the strength in depth and talent pool that England have, I think Jones’s record is not that impressive. Any decent top coach could run England.
Jones wasn't even the best Welsh 2nd row