Deaths in UK 'a fifth higher than normal levels'
24/11/2020 | news | health | 1,780
Nearly 14,000 deaths occurred in the week ending 13 November - with 3,000 linked to Covid.
1
24/11/2020 12:01:06 16 10
bbc
Increased deaths in a pandemic. Who would have thought it.
3
24/11/2020 12:03:14 3 16
bbc
I would. Keith is a poor name to be fair.
13
24/11/2020 12:05:32 6 7
bbc
Yes, but there'll be some on here who'll try to pass it off as normal for the time of year.
87
24/11/2020 12:18:01 3 1
bbc
Yeah 80,000 from Hong Kong flu in 1968
2
24/11/2020 12:03:03 112 27
bbc
Does this take into account the population increase over 5 years ?
5
24/11/2020 12:03:30 61 20
bbc
No.
Is Pat WestBerkshire an instruction, or just a ludicrous name. Must have taken ages to think of that Removed
19
24/11/2020 12:07:36 8 16
bbc
Hasn't the population gone down since "Brexit"? That makes it worse.
52
DC
24/11/2020 12:12:50 11 10
bbc
Gor your information the population has grown by 3% since 2015 thats about 2 million people. Deaths are currently 20% above normal.
53
24/11/2020 12:13:06 15 5
bbc
It literally says "five year average", population fluctuations would have been factored naturally.

Also, even though correlation is not causation; map this to the peaks of the pandemic, and there is a correlation you cannot ignore.
201
xlr
24/11/2020 12:36:33 7 4
bbc
Of course it does.
292
24/11/2020 12:50:11 8 3
bbc
Is this because you saw that very questionable graph in the Daily Mail? It's been discredit completely if you can find it on Twitter. Search 'Statistics Guy'.
755
24/11/2020 14:14:45 5 1
bbc
Yes, it does. What's worrying is some of the idiotic replies deliberately trying to mislead and those voting down people who are giving the correct information.

There does appear to be a conspiracy at work trying to undermine lockdown measures.

Anti-science is not clever!
24/11/2020 16:53:39 1 1
bbc
"Does this take into account the population increase over 5 years ?"

No. It is counted deaths, not a per capita ratio. It needs to be adjusted for age demographics to be properly understood too.
25/11/2020 01:40:07 0 0
bbc
Yes,

Nobody was born over the age of 55
1
24/11/2020 12:01:06 16 10
bbc
Increased deaths in a pandemic. Who would have thought it.
3
24/11/2020 12:03:14 3 16
bbc
I would. Keith is a poor name to be fair.
20
24/11/2020 12:08:26 7 1
bbc
To be fair, I blame my parents.
33
24/11/2020 12:10:10 3 2
bbc
Menzies is a lovely name however. Obviously a real name .
66
DC
24/11/2020 12:14:30 5 1
bbc
At least he managed to capitalise it.
329
24/11/2020 12:46:42 1 0
bbc
Don’t you pronounce ‘Menzies’ mings?
4
24/11/2020 12:03:24 15 4
bbc
As sad as this is, we must remember nothing is certain but death and taxes.
36
24/11/2020 12:10:15 8 15
bbc
Or morons on social media with inane comments. Play up Tottenham
24/11/2020 15:19:19 1 1
bbc
But in this case we can actually do something about it. Social distancing and wearing masks.
2
24/11/2020 12:03:03 112 27
bbc
Does this take into account the population increase over 5 years ?
5
24/11/2020 12:03:30 61 20
bbc
No.
291
24/11/2020 12:50:06 5 2
bbc
Untrue
6
24/11/2020 12:04:07 255 104
bbc
Does involved COVID mean caused by COVID.

No

Stop reporting misleading stats particularly around COVID deaths.

I know you love a sharp spike but lets have an article highlighting what involving COVID means. Does someone who dies in a car crash with COVID count?
25
24/11/2020 12:09:06 202 150
bbc
You can manipulate and argue about the stats all you want. The simple truth is that Covid is by far the biggest factor behind the excess deaths. Care to offer an alternative reason?
29
24/11/2020 12:09:24 5 4
bbc
Well I hope the car wasnt a 1967 Healey .
51
24/11/2020 12:12:32 37 8
bbc
And of the few hundred a day dying within a month of getting a positive C19 test, how many do you think happened to die in a car crash?

(answer: about 5 people a day die on our roads. In any one month less than 1% have covid - so perhaps one person a month is likely to die from a random car accident having had a recent positive covid test)
59
24/11/2020 12:13:35 21 15
bbc
I believe they wouldn't count for the purposes of the PHE daily stats, but would count for the purposes of this misleading story. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
64
24/11/2020 12:14:25 37 28
bbc
I know of one Covid recorded death last week, where the old dear died of a heart attack. Um, so, yes, the stats are misleading.
147
24/11/2020 12:27:32 13 7
bbc
As certain people continue to flout the law, ignore the number of deaths and hold raves, parties in hot-tubs and God only knows what else, the problem seems to be this:

Lockdown rules and the Covid death-count will continue to mean nothing to these people until such time as the deaths include their own relatives and friends.

Until then, they'll see it as "someone else's problem".
Is your problem with the statistics compiled by the ONS? Or with the media reporting the statistics given to them by the ONS, because making them public does not suit your political agenda?
234
24/11/2020 12:42:18 5 4
bbc
The question the medic will ask before ascribing a death to Covid is this: what was the life expectancy of this person if they did *not* have Covid? If that life expectancy is significantly longer than the period from Covid infection to death, then Covid is implicated in the death.
265
24/11/2020 12:46:09 1 1
bbc
Yes it does if they are testing their eyesight
288
24/11/2020 12:49:40 5 4
bbc
Know anything about death certificates...then shut up! There is normally more than one medical problem mentioned.
What, you believe in the 'immaculate conception also'?
Covid does not give you a 'life boost', care to try it?
390
24/11/2020 13:09:51 1 0
bbc
A bit like the "fact" that more men die with prostate cancer than directly from it....
779
24/11/2020 14:19:41 0 0
bbc
I suggest you go directly to the government website for information and you'll see how and what figures are reported there.
7
24/11/2020 12:04:10 13 7
bbc
There’s no single cause for this news, but like with many things, many will find a single source to blame; it’s systemic behaviour in society to do so, both here and worldwide, whether that’s blaming rule breakers, anyone with opposing views to one’s own, etc.

A combination of issues caused this, so we need to act to improve society as a whole, not fuel divide and rule to which we all lose.
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
10
24/11/2020 12:05:22 25 2
bbc
Didn’t listen in school did you Derek?
14
24/11/2020 12:06:22 11 1
bbc
What on earth are you talking about?? If I were you, I would go back to the school you went to and demand they return the taxes that paid for your education ??
18
24/11/2020 12:07:30 7 1
bbc
Wrong
22
24/11/2020 12:08:31 8 2
bbc
No the death rate is under 1% of the population. Where do you get 20% from?
37
24/11/2020 12:10:17 7 1
bbc
Err... that's not true Derek! It kills around 1 in every 100 people who contract the virus... the majority of whom are elderly with some kind of underlying condition.
45
24/11/2020 12:11:36 6 1
bbc
Brilliantly bad statistical analysis there, Derek.
49
24/11/2020 12:12:09 5 1
bbc
Derek you plonker!
70
24/11/2020 12:15:15 3 1
bbc
Derek, go back to bed!
106
24/11/2020 12:20:31 2 1
bbc
This time next year Del you'll be a millionaire!
111
24/11/2020 12:21:07 1 1
bbc
rubbish
188
24/11/2020 12:15:22 0 1
bbc
Taking the USA as an example: (As of today) 12,778,924 cases and 263,701 deaths equals a 2.06% death rate.
297
24/11/2020 12:51:05 0 0
bbc
Not quite as high as that, but still significant, World wide it's about 2.3% with the figures correlated :-

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
9
24/11/2020 12:05:17 13 24
bbc
Yet still there are people saying that Covid doesn't kill people! Barmy.
23
OwO
24/11/2020 12:08:38 14 14
bbc
Note the terminology: "deaths linked to COVID". Even the BBC isn't bothering to pretend it's particularly dangerous anymore. Just fearmongering hype.
44
24/11/2020 12:11:32 4 6
bbc
Nobody says that. What they do say is that 80%of deaths are not covid related, and covid related deaths are not all OF covid.
Stop scaremongering and get the risk into proportion please!!!!
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
10
24/11/2020 12:05:22 25 2
bbc
Didn’t listen in school did you Derek?
2
24/11/2020 12:03:03 112 27
bbc
Does this take into account the population increase over 5 years ?
Is Pat WestBerkshire an instruction, or just a ludicrous name. Must have taken ages to think of that Removed
48
24/11/2020 12:11:55 6 1
bbc
What is it with you and names?

Are you suffering an episode?
12
24/11/2020 12:05:32 86 20
bbc
So, what about the 11,000 other deaths not linked to COVID then?
21
24/11/2020 12:08:28 65 13
bbc
The other 11,000 deaths are in the normal rage of deaths for this time of year. People die all the time, from accidents, foul play, illness(from cancer to flu), old age etc.
31
24/11/2020 12:09:31 17 19
bbc
The BBC doesn't care about them. Never has and never will.
71
24/11/2020 12:15:32 6 11
bbc
They probably were linked to Covid in as much as these people may not have received appropriate treatment as the beds were taken up by Covid patients.
333
24/11/2020 12:57:39 5 1
bbc
They correlate with covid prevalence (and almost no test capacity). Meanwhile, deaths were below trend either side of the peak.

Statistically, most would likely be actual covid deaths, some will be due to the NHS being overwhelmed.

Or just read through the PHE's rather more accurate analysis.
1
24/11/2020 12:01:06 16 10
bbc
Increased deaths in a pandemic. Who would have thought it.
13
24/11/2020 12:05:32 6 7
bbc
Yes, but there'll be some on here who'll try to pass it off as normal for the time of year.
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
14
24/11/2020 12:06:22 11 1
bbc
What on earth are you talking about?? If I were you, I would go back to the school you went to and demand they return the taxes that paid for your education ??
15
Ian
24/11/2020 12:06:56 7 20
bbc
?? We must, must, must be very, very careful this Christmas.

?? These are real people, real lives.
248
24/11/2020 12:44:31 2 4
bbc
Virtue well displayed - you can trot off happy now
16
24/11/2020 12:07:15 64 6
bbc
It will be interesting to see what level of excess deaths we have in the years to come. I would guess that they will be very low as the old/infirm unfortunately died this year
205
24/11/2020 12:37:49 8 12
bbc
There are currently 15.5 million (23% population) over 60, of which 11.4 million are over 65 living in UK, I hope your guess is wrong.
500
24/11/2020 13:26:54 0 0
bbc
I fear this will be proved totally accurate.
17
24/11/2020 12:07:23 376 117
bbc
What does deaths "linked to Covid" actually mean? Either they are caused by it or it is just a contributory factor to those unfortunate people who were dying anyway from another cause. Now it is "levelling off". Really? Yesterday it was going up. It seems to me that all these statistics are being "manipulated" to fit whatever nonsense the Government is spouting at any particular time.
35
OwO
24/11/2020 12:10:12 424 117
bbc
We have no idea. The BBC loves this type of language though, anything to stir up more fear. Not really the government to blame when the media is off running it's own hype train.
38
24/11/2020 12:10:46 17 18
bbc
hear hear i could not agree more
196
xlr
24/11/2020 12:35:54 14 12
bbc
"Deaths linked to covid" is a perfectly clear term.

It's the deaths that would have expected to have not happened if covid-19 was not around.

You will have "deaths linked to covid" many months after people cease to test positive, mainly due to the inability of the care system to be able to cater for many long term illnesses or cancers during the epidemic.
251
24/11/2020 12:44:38 15 13
bbc
Deaths "linked to Covid" is defined as those deaths that have occurred within 28 days of the person testing positive for Covid-19.

Whether that is the best way of measuring it is open to debate but as long as the UK has a higher number of deaths than their European neighbours then it is appears to be good news from a BBC viewpoint.
270
24/11/2020 12:47:15 13 4
bbc
Pretty tough to manipulate a count of dead bodies, depending on your personal level of paranoia. Ditto comparison with a 5-year average. From my reading of the graph it's pretty clear "linked to Covid" is causing the rise rather than people who would die anyway represented by the 5-year average.
278
24/11/2020 12:48:09 11 1
bbc
It can "go up" and be "levelling off" at the same time. It just means the rate of increase isn't as great as it was..... what isnt being manipulated is the total number of deaths. Something is killing a lot more brits in 2020 than in 2019
336
24/11/2020 12:58:20 1 6
bbc
Last weeks death certificates: 90% of those with Covid on the death certificate had Covid listed as a contributory factor, only 10% had Covid as the primary cause.
361
jim
24/11/2020 13:02:20 8 0
bbc
No one dies 'of' Covid. People die because their lungs fill with fluid. They fill with fluid as body tries to destroy the virus infected cells, each of which can infect a million more cells. The heart stops or multiple organs fail as the lungs fail.

If someone drowns on their own blood after being shot in the lung, we say they were shot to death, same with Covid-19.
374
24/11/2020 13:06:03 5 0
bbc
People see what they want to see in statistics. Or ignore them anyway. Or misunderstand them. Plenty of evidence in this HYS
490
24/11/2020 13:24:25 5 7
bbc
If someone was blown up by a grenade but had a positive test within 28 days, they would appear in these stats as "death linked to Covid".

The language is another tool to keep the sheep docile - government daren't say "sorry about the hundreds of thousands of destroyed businesses, millions more people on benefits, cancelled operations, mental health impact and excess suicides - we got it wrong".
547
24/11/2020 13:39:41 0 0
bbc
Those death certificates where 'Covid' was "Mentioned" on the certificate. ONS.
555
24/11/2020 13:40:02 2 1
bbc
you are accusing the BBC of editing stories to suit the government! are you mad by any chance?
556
24/11/2020 13:40:18 3 0
bbc
Other countries especially Germany if other pathology was present then that would be cause of death, hence significant differences we would count a cardac arrest as COVID death if present even if asymptomatic
579
24/11/2020 13:46:33 3 3
bbc
Quite right. The actual deaths from covid are most likely a lot less than the stats suggest. The stats for infections and deaths are meaningless. What is a covid infection, you'd expect someone who has the virus and is infectious. A covid death, someone who has died from covid. The numbers are made up to put fear in the populace. Where are the impact assessments of the costs of lockdowns?
600
24/11/2020 13:51:51 3 4
bbc
As one anti lockdown commentator said: if I jumped out of my aircraft without a parachute and after my death they carried out an autopsy and found I had Covid 19 my death would be classed as a Covid 19 death.
Says it all really.
Nobody is allowed to be classed as dying of old age anymore.
642
24/11/2020 13:57:25 2 0
bbc
Our Nick has 3 running totals , but promotes the lower number all the time. Remember you have only 28 days from diagnose to death to appear on the graph of many peaks.
674
24/11/2020 14:01:41 1 3
bbc
Test COVID positive then get run over by a bus 10 days later = COVID death
979
24/11/2020 15:06:16 5 0
bbc
I'm asthmatic. as i am generally fit and healthy the odds of me dying from an attack are low. If i contracted covid it would most likely be the asthma which would cause my death, but Covid would be the reason for the attack. It's like air pollution. The pollution itself doesn't kill you, but it can trigger conditions which will.
999
24/11/2020 15:09:43 0 0
bbc
It means those who have had diagnosis of Covid within 28 day before the death. This information is on every chart on the BBC. There are none so blind as will not see.
24/11/2020 15:18:34 0 0
bbc
For numbers from Public Health England/NHS it means they died of all causes within 30 days of a positive Covid test. This doesn't mean they died of Covid, or were admitted to hospital with Covid symptoms. If the numbers come from the ONS then they include as a Covid death anyone whose death certificate mentions Covid even if it not the primary cause of death.
24/11/2020 15:24:39 4 0
bbc
We are all dying anyway since the day we were born. Nobody lives forever. The point is dying earlier than they would otherwise. That's a tragedy because death is permanent and final. Everything you think and feel ceases to exist. That's death and that's the cost of Covid deniers and those who continually seek to undermine efforts to mitigate this pandemic. People like you.
24/11/2020 15:33:19 0 1
bbc
Lies, damned lies and statistics as they say! You can make figures say whatever you want them to a nd that has certainly been the case this year!
24/11/2020 16:20:12 0 0
bbc
I disagree it’s the government, it’s the whole wokeist attitude, we can’t get old and we shouldn’t die, we need to get some perspective.
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
18
24/11/2020 12:07:30 7 1
bbc
Wrong
2
24/11/2020 12:03:03 112 27
bbc
Does this take into account the population increase over 5 years ?
19
24/11/2020 12:07:36 8 16
bbc
Hasn't the population gone down since "Brexit"? That makes it worse.
24/11/2020 19:01:09 0 0
bbc
"Hasn't the population gone down since "Brexit"? "

No. The rate of increase of population due to direct immigration slowed down, but it was still a net increase, each year.
3
24/11/2020 12:03:14 3 16
bbc
I would. Keith is a poor name to be fair.
20
24/11/2020 12:08:26 7 1
bbc
To be fair, I blame my parents.
12
24/11/2020 12:05:32 86 20
bbc
So, what about the 11,000 other deaths not linked to COVID then?
21
24/11/2020 12:08:28 65 13
bbc
The other 11,000 deaths are in the normal rage of deaths for this time of year. People die all the time, from accidents, foul play, illness(from cancer to flu), old age etc.
61
24/11/2020 12:14:05 8 5
bbc
I think that is Centuria's point!
822
24/11/2020 14:27:07 5 2
bbc
The person you replied to got 47 up-votes despite you pointing out the OBVIOUS to them.

We live in a land of too many idiots, or a land of bots being paid to stir up trouble and deliberately mislead!
25/11/2020 00:30:16 0 0
bbc
and general stupidity!
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
22
24/11/2020 12:08:31 8 2
bbc
No the death rate is under 1% of the population. Where do you get 20% from?
9
24/11/2020 12:05:17 13 24
bbc
Yet still there are people saying that Covid doesn't kill people! Barmy.
23
OwO
24/11/2020 12:08:38 14 14
bbc
Note the terminology: "deaths linked to COVID". Even the BBC isn't bothering to pretend it's particularly dangerous anymore. Just fearmongering hype.
269
24/11/2020 12:46:59 2 1
bbc
It's still killing over 440 a day (seven da average), a number that has been currently rising, not fearmonger, but fact :-

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

The terminology detail used is better explained here :-

https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2020/08/12/behind-the-headlines-counting-covid-19-deaths/
24
24/11/2020 12:03:08 4 9
bbc
Dreading the figures come mid January.
39
24/11/2020 12:10:47 6 3
bbc
it will be much better by then, stop flapping
47
OwO
24/11/2020 12:11:48 3 2
bbc
The only figures to dread are the state of the economy if we keep our heads buried in the sand like this. China could not have found an easier way to devastate western economies.
6
24/11/2020 12:04:07 255 104
bbc
Does involved COVID mean caused by COVID.

No

Stop reporting misleading stats particularly around COVID deaths.

I know you love a sharp spike but lets have an article highlighting what involving COVID means. Does someone who dies in a car crash with COVID count?
25
24/11/2020 12:09:06 202 150
bbc
You can manipulate and argue about the stats all you want. The simple truth is that Covid is by far the biggest factor behind the excess deaths. Care to offer an alternative reason?
85
OwO
24/11/2020 12:17:46 31 22
bbc
The restriction of services due to the lockdown. As COVID has an impact on these, they're easily described as "involved COVID".

The stats are there to scare people like yourself who lack the critical thinking to look at them beyond face value.
113
24/11/2020 12:21:29 5 10
bbc
Boris Johnson
129
24/11/2020 12:23:57 18 5
bbc
Let's have some perspective and give us the biggest factor for excess deaths in the previous 10 years. I bet they will be flu or pneumonia, both respiratory diseases. Add Covid to these two and what chance do people stand. I wonder how many of the excess deaths also had pneumonia which has appeared on many of my grandparents/in laws/ parents death certificates?
130
GFT
24/11/2020 12:23:59 45 39
bbc
You are wrong

A man fell off a ladder last week and died from his injuries He was found to be Covid positive - his death was put down to the virus. This is happening all over the country

Almost all of the 85 year olds who have died from the virus would probably have died from 'normal' flu

Only 357 people under the age of 60 have died from the virus in the UK and most of those had health issues
133
24/11/2020 12:24:29 10 14
bbc
Yes. It has a mortality rate of under 1% so you couldn't be more wr ong.
154
24/11/2020 12:29:01 14 8
bbc
Too simplistic. We don't yet know the real cost of denying healthcare to victims of cancer, strokes and heart disease. The extent of these excess deaths may yet prove to have been unnecessarily exasperated by the measures put in place to combat covid.
169
24/11/2020 12:32:58 11 10
bbc
It has been demonstrated by more than one scientific study that lockdown causes deaths. There's one factor off the top of my head....
236
24/11/2020 12:19:39 6 3
bbc
In Scotland there are at least 4,000 fewer cancer diagnoses than this time last year so there's a lot of excess deaths happening and soon to happen from that alone, never mind other illnesses not picked up.
267
24/11/2020 12:46:50 3 3
bbc
....You will have "deaths linked to covid" many months after people cease to test positive, mainly due to the inability of the care system to be able to cater for many long term illnesses or cancers during the epidemic.....

for your perusal.
335
24/11/2020 12:58:12 5 5
bbc
The fact that winter usually sees excess deaths, and that we had a very mild winter last year. Looking beyond the five year average, we are still at a level consistent with a normal winter. Even if we take the report at face value, do you really think a small increase in deaths of very old, very sick people justifies the destruction of our economy and the misery from that? I don't - not even close
410
24/11/2020 13:11:54 2 0
bbc
Not having access to GP's and Hospital clinics will also be contributory whether people have tested positive to Covid or not
534
MGE
24/11/2020 13:35:26 2 2
bbc
It will not be just one reason. However, lockdown is a reasonable explanation. People have not been able to, (or have chosen to) go to their GPs and to hospital. Operations have been cancelled, visits to consultants cancelled.
737
24/11/2020 14:11:48 0 0
bbc
Possibly people banging their heads against a wall.
26
Ian
24/11/2020 12:09:09 6 18
bbc
?? It's not just covid that makes people ill ...

?? ... so does being governed by Johnson ?? and the Conservatives
62
24/11/2020 12:14:22 3 4
bbc
FACTUAL EVIDENCE?? I THOUGHT NOT
27
24/11/2020 12:09:11 8 16
bbc
Covid19 the product of communism and socialism.
57
24/11/2020 12:13:19 4 2
bbc
So how to you arrive at that stupid assumption?
28
24/11/2020 12:09:23 299 69
bbc
What a poorly-written article. There is no explanation of what ‘normal levels’ means at the start of the article & it’s not until para 6 that there’s a mention of f5-year average. There is no mention of population growth in the last 5 years.

The official stats for England show that there were only 8 more deaths in October 2020 than there had been - not scary enough so we need a new article?
43
24/11/2020 12:11:26 134 34
bbc
I meant to say, there were only 8 more deaths in England than there had been in 2019
287
NMT
24/11/2020 12:49:31 12 0
bbc
You can go to the ONS site and find that all that stuff out.
392
24/11/2020 13:04:39 11 3
bbc
"Excess deaths in UK 'a fifth higher than normal'". WRONG. By definition of 'normal' - normal Excess Deaths = 0. I think they mean to say "Deaths in UK 'a fifth higher than normal'".
420
24/11/2020 13:13:38 12 2
bbc
... you are saying the a almost doubling of deaths compared to average is April and May before we the effects of lockdown kicked in are down to population growth!??! As much as we all hate lockdown a doubling or tripling of annual deaths in the UK was not an option. These are humans with families.
452
24/11/2020 13:18:01 3 6
bbc
Excellent
533
24/11/2020 13:35:14 7 3
bbc
You are, and I suspect you know you are, talking complete piffle. As someone above said, you are spreading Daily Mail misinformation, which is covered in the Full Fact website article linked to above.

And as for the person who said you should ignore Full Fact... sigh!!
788
24/11/2020 14:21:41 3 2
bbc
Why is there no news whatsoever on NHS beds capacity?

The R number is pure estimation based on testing that is not comparable to Feb/Mar when the UK's testing capacity was less than 2000 per day.

NHS admissions and available capacity is an actual measure, rather than estimation, and also the most relevant measure to use for deciding Covid Restrictions policy.

Why is the BBC not reporting on it?
24/11/2020 16:18:41 3 1
bbc
It's nice to see from the comments that so many people realise Athelstan is making up numbers. Based on weeks 41 to 44 of 2019 and 2020, i.e. October, the difference is 1,800 not 8.

Does Athelstan knowingly misinterpret and spread information or does he just not understand it?
24/11/2020 17:27:21 2 1
bbc
It is not poorly written.

It is deliberately vague.
6
24/11/2020 12:04:07 255 104
bbc
Does involved COVID mean caused by COVID.

No

Stop reporting misleading stats particularly around COVID deaths.

I know you love a sharp spike but lets have an article highlighting what involving COVID means. Does someone who dies in a car crash with COVID count?
29
24/11/2020 12:09:24 5 4
bbc
Well I hope the car wasnt a 1967 Healey .
30
24/11/2020 12:09:28 53 10
bbc
Linked to, or involved, or with, where is it confirmed cause of death is specifically from Covid?
437
24/11/2020 13:15:58 31 23
bbc
Some people die as a direct result of Covid. The virus harms enough to lead to their demise and the patient would test positive for Covid at the time of death.
For others, a bout of Covid severely weakens the immune system. A secondary infection, such as pneumonia, steps in and the patient dies from that.

I would argue that, in the absence of Covid, both deaths would not have occurred.
465
24/11/2020 13:20:37 6 5
bbc
Your comment doesnt make sense. All injuries, viruses, infections and conditions cause a myriad of other issues in the body, some of which can cause death. For example, HIV/AIDs doesnt directly kill, it weakens the immune system so that other illnesses kill the patient. Does that mean we ignore the HIV virus? No. Please try to understand things before commenting on them.
834
24/11/2020 14:30:40 4 0
bbc
I agree, ONS data shows circa 64k died with COVID on the death certificate. NHS data shows that 55k of them died in hospital and were tested positive. That leaves 9k who died with COVID but they weren’t that ill enough to go to hospital. I heard German law prohibits COVID on the death certificate unless there is a positive test, UK law does not.
12
24/11/2020 12:05:32 86 20
bbc
So, what about the 11,000 other deaths not linked to COVID then?
31
24/11/2020 12:09:31 17 19
bbc
The BBC doesn't care about them. Never has and never will.
83
24/11/2020 12:17:22 16 2
bbc
Seriously? Countless stories about road traffic accidents, murders, cancers, strokes, dementia.... Where the hell have you been!?
24/11/2020 16:42:27 4 1
bbc
The BBC has regular articles on other causes of death - illnesses/diseases/murders/accidents etc. including articles on individual incidents. But you know that. The BBC has become the favourite punch-bag for a certain section of society, but the media (publicly financed media especially) is always one of the first targets for attack in dictatorships and by those who would support such regimes.
32
24/11/2020 12:10:07 157 22
bbc
How about comparing November to the worst 5 years in the last 50 years to get some perception of our response and how proportionate the lockdown is to mortality rates.
115
24/11/2020 12:21:49 136 3
bbc
In 1970 the UK population was 55 million. Today it is almost 68 million and due to medical advances in the last 50 years the proportion of old people in the population is much higher. These would have to be taken into account in any comparison.
24/11/2020 17:48:15 0 0
bbc
2017 across Europe and the UK was the worst for deaths, far more than this.
3
24/11/2020 12:03:14 3 16
bbc
I would. Keith is a poor name to be fair.
33
24/11/2020 12:10:10 3 2
bbc
Menzies is a lovely name however. Obviously a real name .
Bollocks! Removed
17
24/11/2020 12:07:23 376 117
bbc
What does deaths "linked to Covid" actually mean? Either they are caused by it or it is just a contributory factor to those unfortunate people who were dying anyway from another cause. Now it is "levelling off". Really? Yesterday it was going up. It seems to me that all these statistics are being "manipulated" to fit whatever nonsense the Government is spouting at any particular time.
35
OwO
24/11/2020 12:10:12 424 117
bbc
We have no idea. The BBC loves this type of language though, anything to stir up more fear. Not really the government to blame when the media is off running it's own hype train.
182
24/11/2020 12:34:37 13 14
bbc
But you obviously still read it?
Absolutely. Boris and the government are 100% blameless. It was the completely reckless decisions of the BBC to allow 20 million people to fly into the country from Covid hotspots, including 3000 from Madrid (I believe it was Gary Lineker who made that decision). It was Clare Balding who gave the go ahead for the Cheltenham Festival. And of course the Beebs Tinky Winky messed up with PPE buying.
403
24/11/2020 13:11:27 8 4
bbc
What type of language? They are stirring no fear in me or probably the vast majority. Where is the hype? They are reporting what's happening and if you don't like it, then don't read it. No hype at all. Just stating a point and that is all.
707
24/11/2020 14:06:46 3 4
bbc
A national broadcaster with an Agenda should have no place in the UK
990
24/11/2020 15:08:40 5 0
bbc
Is this the new rebellion? The Torry gammon hating the truth and facts because it is a mirror to responsibility?
Brexit news = fear mongering,
Covid - fake news,
Economy = remember the war.

No problem = just say the BBC is biased and lying ( ignore ALL other sources of confirmation.)
24/11/2020 16:59:08 0 0
bbc
Blame the ONS for the data. Not the BBC for publishing it. It is the government to blame since they are in charge - I think !!!
24/11/2020 17:01:10 0 0
bbc
Wonder who the state media is ?
24/11/2020 17:10:54 1 0
bbc
Your paranoia about the BBC strongly points to a more than moderately right-wing view, and therefore that is most likely why you think the government is not to blame. We have the highest rate of Covid deaths in Europe. The Government must take at least SOME responsibility and blame for that. Even a moderately right-wing person can see that without much trouble.
4
24/11/2020 12:03:24 15 4
bbc
As sad as this is, we must remember nothing is certain but death and taxes.
36
24/11/2020 12:10:15 8 15
bbc
Or morons on social media with inane comments. Play up Tottenham
191
24/11/2020 12:18:28 2 1
bbc
Everybody is entitled to their opinion whatever others may think! I hate Beethoven's music??
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
37
24/11/2020 12:10:17 7 1
bbc
Err... that's not true Derek! It kills around 1 in every 100 people who contract the virus... the majority of whom are elderly with some kind of underlying condition.
17
24/11/2020 12:07:23 376 117
bbc
What does deaths "linked to Covid" actually mean? Either they are caused by it or it is just a contributory factor to those unfortunate people who were dying anyway from another cause. Now it is "levelling off". Really? Yesterday it was going up. It seems to me that all these statistics are being "manipulated" to fit whatever nonsense the Government is spouting at any particular time.
38
24/11/2020 12:10:46 17 18
bbc
hear hear i could not agree more
24
24/11/2020 12:03:08 4 9
bbc
Dreading the figures come mid January.
39
24/11/2020 12:10:47 6 3
bbc
it will be much better by then, stop flapping
238
24/11/2020 12:24:59 1 1
bbc
Speak to you mid January Ren.
40
24/11/2020 12:10:55 324 114
bbc
In the UK there are on average 600,000 deaths a year. "Data from national statisticians show there were almost 14,000 deaths in the week ending 13 November." which is about normal, allowing for variations year on year and the new Covid-19 flu.
Put another way, we are in our second lockdown because of a 10% variation in deaths, which equates to less than 0.1% of the UK population. Worth it?
98
24/11/2020 12:19:21 140 68
bbc
These are deaths that involve a totally discredited PCR Test, and I’m sure almost all were with co-morbidities.
I can’t tell you how many, because they like to shroud this in mystery.
Why Journalists don’t constantly ask them why they run the PCR Test at 40 cycles, when the recommended rate is 30 cycles….I have no idea.
121
24/11/2020 12:22:49 10 5
bbc
I think it's worth it given that 15.5 million are over 60, then add in all the other vulnerabilities covering all age groups obesity, diabetes, asthma, smoking etc. And if ICU fills up the death rates rise.

Some detail is shown here, and these are with the controls we've had in place:-

https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html
138
24/11/2020 12:25:37 18 6
bbc
It is actually pretty normal if you look at one particular figure for November 2019 in the last week of November 2019 11000 people died of all causes
255
24/11/2020 12:45:07 16 10
bbc
Its worth it if you are the 0.1%.
273
24/11/2020 12:47:33 29 14
bbc
Covid-19 being flu isn't going to become true no matter how many times you write it.

60k deaths is also still a lot even if you write it as a percentage. And those numbers were only achieved with a series of lockdowns and restrictions. How many deaths is acceptable for you?

For all that, we should have gone with suppression, but that ship has sailed.
277
24/11/2020 12:48:06 21 14
bbc
Your attitude is prevalent in the United States; their ignoring or minimising the Pandemic has resulted in 2,000 deaths a day (thats about one every 40 seconds) is that worth it? 0.1% of the UK population is 6,700, we have already lost 55,000...
311
24/11/2020 12:54:08 29 11
bbc
No. As a vulnerable person I am appalled at the lockdowns and the many lives it is destroying. My grand children and probably my great grandchildren will be paying for this for many years. I can isolate , let life get back to normal. That is the adult and none fearful decision. Government have to make difficult decisions but this current leaders appear to be running scared.
422
24/11/2020 13:14:20 4 8
bbc
that depends it is a member of your family you are prepared to watch die.
498
24/11/2020 13:26:45 6 0
bbc
Yes you are right, excess deaths was the way they used to calculate flu deaths and that varied greatly. Throw another variable in and it doesn't make statistical sense apart from including flu and covid together.
705
24/11/2020 14:06:21 7 5
bbc
That is 10% additional deaths even with the lockdowns reducing the total number of excess deaths (yes they have see the fall following introduction of lockdown and the rise after it was released)
Without lockdown the NHS would have collapsed (it came close) and many who would otherwise survive would die as a result. So that 10% and 0.1% total would be up to 300% and 3%.
830
24/11/2020 14:29:38 1 0
bbc
It depends how full the hospitals get when an extra 1% of the population (600,000) need a bed
890
24/11/2020 14:41:49 1 0
bbc
Worth it?
The answer would depend on if it was the death of someone you care for.
Care to be the person who decides whose life is expendable?
940
24/11/2020 14:55:49 3 1
bbc
You're picking a period where deaths are at their lowest BECAUSE of the lockdown. Back in May there were 25,000 deaths a week at the peek, which is a bit more than the 10% you are quoting

Maybe we should roll back time, not have a lockdown and let 50,000 die every week for a month and get it over with? There maybe be more deaths, but hey, as long as you get to get your life back to normal quicker
24/11/2020 15:40:03 4 0
bbc
Bang on, all deaths are extremely sad but we are all mortal. Humankind has had to face pandemics all through history. Never has the world "shut up shop and hidden" like we've done in 2020....and it doesn't make much of a difference. The global overreaction has led to the biggest ever economic crash the world has ever seen, with only China growing.. wake up and the smell the coffee!
24/11/2020 16:27:51 0 1
bbc
Jesus wept- another 'if only there'd been a lot more deaths to justify the lockdown' post. Have a word with yourself, will you?
24/11/2020 17:05:24 0 1
bbc
'Worth it?' You tell me if you or a member of your family get Covid and end up on a ventilator. It's not all about playing with numbers.
24/11/2020 17:30:42 0 1
bbc
You are comparing apples and oranges - the 5 year average is when flu etc are all allowed to run wild through the population. The covid numbers are the result of two aggressive lockdowns. What do you imagine the comparison would be if Covid were allowed to run rampage through society and would your 0.1% statistic still stand up to scrutiny? I think we both know the answer to that!
25/11/2020 00:28:15 0 1
bbc
Lockdown is certainly worth it to save every life. Covid is not flu and takes the lives of many younger people.
Bob
25/11/2020 20:40:18 0 0
bbc
I'm surprised you even ask the question. Try asking the families of the 2,000+ victims each week. We're a civilized society, we don't put finances and convenience before human life.
41
24/11/2020 12:10:58 5 25
bbc
Please can we have an inquiry into the highest death toll in Europe and per capita higher than the US and get this shower out.

Sir Keir is the only option to heal our broken nation... we need a new Tony Blair after this fiasco, which has claimed the lives of many innocent OAPs thanks to Bojo and the tories, in case you have forgotten?
54
24/11/2020 12:13:10 6 4
bbc
Spoken like a true leftie
65
OwO
24/11/2020 12:14:28 5 2
bbc
Ladies & gents, here's a prime example of "twisting statistics to fit your argument". Although acknowledging that the per capita rate is important when it suits the poster, they only refer to absolute deaths in Europe. The truth shows that other countries in Europe continue to fare worse than us.

Captain hindsight is the answer to this? Laughable.
190
24/11/2020 12:17:38 3 3
bbc
I can help you out here to save you getting in a tiz. It’s down to England being the most densely populated country in Europe and more than 10x the density of the US. T.Blair Esq was instrumental in increasing that density.

Hope that helps.
42
24/11/2020 12:11:25 55 32
bbc
Bucks Fizz - making your mind up!

Excess deaths, no excess deaths. Lockdown when the numbers are falling, do nothing when they are rising. MP's behaving badly, Home secretaries above the very rules they help make. Advisors running the government, PM incompetent.

Did I miss anything?
413
24/11/2020 13:12:24 25 23
bbc
You missed the facts with your misguided opinions
470
24/11/2020 13:21:21 0 7
bbc
Yes, you missed a lot. We are leaving the EU, increasing our trading and our diplomatic links across the world, and spending more on defence. Big wins as far as I'm concerned.
24/11/2020 17:35:30 0 0
bbc
"Did I miss anything?"

I think the lucrative pandemic gravy train is worth a mention.
28
24/11/2020 12:09:23 299 69
bbc
What a poorly-written article. There is no explanation of what ‘normal levels’ means at the start of the article & it’s not until para 6 that there’s a mention of f5-year average. There is no mention of population growth in the last 5 years.

The official stats for England show that there were only 8 more deaths in October 2020 than there had been - not scary enough so we need a new article?
43
24/11/2020 12:11:26 134 34
bbc
I meant to say, there were only 8 more deaths in England than there had been in 2019
279
24/11/2020 12:48:09 11 28
bbc
You dont even have the basic mental control to type what you meant. Are you mentally challenged or just over excitable?
284
24/11/2020 12:48:49 22 6
bbc
Where do you get this figure from? If it's from that Daily Mail reprint of Statistics Guy, it is *not* correct.

https://fullfact.org/health/mail-deaths-chart/

Please don't post misinformation. Check your sources.
290
24/11/2020 12:49:47 23 2
bbc
Gosh, it's almost like you're regurgitating the nonsense of Statistics Guy, who was so sure of his information he deleted all his social media accounts.
338
24/11/2020 12:58:56 10 3
bbc
That is the point of using a 5 year average - there will be rises and falls as normal, but the average is just that, an average value. Comparing one year to another is meaningless because of the normal variations, the "noise" in the data.
508
24/11/2020 13:29:35 9 2
bbc
I downloaded weekly deaths from ONS for October 2020 and 2019, Weeks 40 to 43. There was 39, 949 deaths in Oct 2019 and 41,172 in Oct 2020. So there were 1,223 more deaths in October this year than same time last year. If people want to check this, search for "Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional". I was suspicious when you said the difference was only 8 deaths.
24/11/2020 16:21:05 1 2
bbc
BBC, never let facts get in the way of handwringing !
24/11/2020 17:46:37 1 1
bbc
And 2017 was the worst year for flu with more deaths.
9
24/11/2020 12:05:17 13 24
bbc
Yet still there are people saying that Covid doesn't kill people! Barmy.
44
24/11/2020 12:11:32 4 6
bbc
Nobody says that. What they do say is that 80%of deaths are not covid related, and covid related deaths are not all OF covid.
Stop scaremongering and get the risk into proportion please!!!!
Effing moron. Removed
870
24/11/2020 14:37:31 1 0
bbc
Yes they do. All those dead people around the world and you don't give a toss do you?
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
45
24/11/2020 12:11:36 6 1
bbc
Brilliantly bad statistical analysis there, Derek.
46
24/11/2020 12:11:48 14 11
bbc
The graphic clearly shows that weekly deaths are 19% higher than normal and yet people in the comments still think it's not serious
109
24/11/2020 12:20:47 9 6
bbc
It's not! A bad year for flue , like we had in winter 2017/18 would give vey similar results.
At the and of the day it's about perspective and 19% of not many is very few in terms of a Population of 67,000,000. Barely noticeable compared to the impact lockdown is having on everyone - for example dentists detect 22 mouth cancers a day normally, how many deaths now? And to hat us just a tiny item.
187
24/11/2020 12:15:10 0 1
bbc
It’s not - rounding errors and natural correction only.
24
24/11/2020 12:03:08 4 9
bbc
Dreading the figures come mid January.
47
OwO
24/11/2020 12:11:48 3 2
bbc
The only figures to dread are the state of the economy if we keep our heads buried in the sand like this. China could not have found an easier way to devastate western economies.
163
24/11/2020 12:31:47 0 2
bbc
Not sure what China has to do with it other than the conspiracy theories.
Nobody points finger at USA for Spanish Flu (1918).

National debt has been rising for many years now, and recently took off again in 2008. Yes there is borrowing to cover Covid, but it's only a small part of the picture :-

https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_debt_analysis
Is Pat WestBerkshire an instruction, or just a ludicrous name. Must have taken ages to think of that Removed
48
24/11/2020 12:11:55 6 1
bbc
What is it with you and names?

Are you suffering an episode?
I hate your name and if I could I would hunt you down and give you some options to choose from, so you could change it to something less rubbish. There are literally dozens to choose from. Removed
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
49
24/11/2020 12:12:09 5 1
bbc
Derek you plonker!
50
24/11/2020 12:12:10 6 18
bbc
This is why Boris Johnson and his cabinet need to be put on trial. We need a Nurembery McCarthy hearing styled national trial in the UK Supreme Court.

We had 2 months to prepare for COVID, and they did nothing. They allowed a torrent of infections back in February and March, which as an island this country could easily have stopped at the airport.
68
24/11/2020 12:14:54 8 3
bbc
Lockdown4ever? Okay that seems a reasonable response... have you considered being sectioned?
They also put untested Covid patents into carehomes (same as in Scotland) and sent untested students all over the country spreading the virus into every corner of the nation. Funny you mention Nuremburg... because the final solution springs to mind. Removed
90
24/11/2020 12:18:23 3 2
bbc
You realize that the vast majority of infections occured from Brits returning from European holidays, many returning from skiing holidays in Northern Italy, and other high risk areas. Never mind, why let facts get in the way of your political prejudice.
131
24/11/2020 12:24:09 3 1
bbc
And I suppose you were one of the few campaigning for action back in February - or are you only commenting now with the benefit of hindsight that wasn't available at the time even to the Gov.?

The fact is, nobody realised how bad Covid was, so naturally the Gov. hesitated before implementing economy destroying measures. Yes, they started late, but generally have struck a reasonable balance since.
186
24/11/2020 12:14:33 0 1
bbc
Oh dear. Conspiracy theorist alert.
6
24/11/2020 12:04:07 255 104
bbc
Does involved COVID mean caused by COVID.

No

Stop reporting misleading stats particularly around COVID deaths.

I know you love a sharp spike but lets have an article highlighting what involving COVID means. Does someone who dies in a car crash with COVID count?
51
24/11/2020 12:12:32 37 8
bbc
And of the few hundred a day dying within a month of getting a positive C19 test, how many do you think happened to die in a car crash?

(answer: about 5 people a day die on our roads. In any one month less than 1% have covid - so perhaps one person a month is likely to die from a random car accident having had a recent positive covid test)
528
24/11/2020 13:33:34 1 1
bbc
Up to now 1.4 million people have died in the world with a positive covid test this year. Road accident deaths are just behind at 1.21 million
791
24/11/2020 14:22:08 1 1
bbc
If a person died as the result of a car accident then Covid would not by definition be listed on the death certificate as a factor.
They would as a result NOT be recorded as a covid death.

If a person was intensive care for 28 days with Covid and died of multiple organ failure after that time, they would also NOT be recorded as a Covid death as they died after the 28 days from 1st +ve test.
2
24/11/2020 12:03:03 112 27
bbc
Does this take into account the population increase over 5 years ?
52
DC
24/11/2020 12:12:50 11 10
bbc
Gor your information the population has grown by 3% since 2015 thats about 2 million people. Deaths are currently 20% above normal.
99
OwO
24/11/2020 12:19:30 6 7
bbc
But not 20% of the population. 580k deaths last year, increased by 20% is 696k. Population is still going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up.
2
24/11/2020 12:03:03 112 27
bbc
Does this take into account the population increase over 5 years ?
53
24/11/2020 12:13:06 15 5
bbc
It literally says "five year average", population fluctuations would have been factored naturally.

Also, even though correlation is not causation; map this to the peaks of the pandemic, and there is a correlation you cannot ignore.
41
24/11/2020 12:10:58 5 25
bbc
Please can we have an inquiry into the highest death toll in Europe and per capita higher than the US and get this shower out.

Sir Keir is the only option to heal our broken nation... we need a new Tony Blair after this fiasco, which has claimed the lives of many innocent OAPs thanks to Bojo and the tories, in case you have forgotten?
54
24/11/2020 12:13:10 6 4
bbc
Spoken like a true leftie
126
24/11/2020 12:23:31 3 5
bbc
Spoken like a true HUMAN BEING pal. This government is a disgrace as anyone with a semblence of intelligence or integrity can see. Get these inept clowns out - they have lied about everything and dropped the ball on Covid. Get rid.
55
24/11/2020 12:13:10 1 5
bbc
33 consecutive weeks (bar 1) of 700+ extra deaths at home. We desperately need some balance, or this stat is going to get worse in the medium to long term.
56
24/11/2020 12:13:13 10 14
bbc
This year has been a real eye opener. Too many people have broken rules and think they know best regarding social distancing. I've called friends and family members out on their total disregard for the laws and safety of others. Most of these people are Corbynites. They do as they choose. Covid sympathisers. They'll tell you the figures are made up... therefore they can do as they please.
100
24/11/2020 12:19:38 2 4
bbc
politics nothing to do with the "rules "
27
24/11/2020 12:09:11 8 16
bbc
Covid19 the product of communism and socialism.
57
24/11/2020 12:13:19 4 2
bbc
So how to you arrive at that stupid assumption?
150
24/11/2020 12:28:23 0 3
bbc
It came from China perhaps?
58
24/11/2020 12:13:22 704 123
bbc
Excess deaths.

Can we also look into how many of these excess deaths were as a result of shutting down all services (eg cardiology, cancer, diabetic clinic, lung disease clinic, transplant etc).

All nations say they don't want to get to a point where they have to chose who to save, that choice has already been made by shutting down other essential NHS care.
72
24/11/2020 12:15:36 185 32
bbc
33 consecutive weeks (bar 1) of 700+ extra deaths at home. We desperately need some balance, or this stat is going to get worse in the medium to long term.
108
24/11/2020 12:20:35 66 50
bbc
According to their graph none whatsoever! This is why we don’t trust them. Nothing they say fits with what we know from other sources. Boris ignores backbench demands for a proper analysis because he knows it will show the truth.
181
24/11/2020 12:34:24 77 90
bbc
They had covid on the death certificates, but that doesn't matter to you does it? You want to be there at every autopsy no doubt!
The NHS core is shut down because of fools who deny that covid is a risk and flout the rules, blame them, but that would mean looking in the mirror and that will never happen, what blame yourself....?
209
24/11/2020 12:38:52 51 7
bbc
It's there - the blue plot in the graph: "Other excess deaths" - possibly slightly above average (unclear from the graph), but clearly well below Covid.
218
24/11/2020 12:40:02 26 32
bbc
The government will only get blamed for Covid deaths so they don’t worry about deaths from anything else.
223
24/11/2020 12:40:53 33 15
bbc
Genuine question here:
Do we know how many people have died from Covid19? I mean, the actual figure.
Is this information out there anywhere?
229
jim
24/11/2020 12:41:22 29 10
bbc
You can tell that there are fewer other deaths than average because the red line dips below the 5-year average. We have fewer excess deaths from other sources because many who would have been expected to die as the cold sets in have already died of Covid-19 in March, April, May, June and July. Some people are dying because NHS is stretched distracted, exhaused but fewer than average.
242
24/11/2020 12:42:59 19 13
bbc
None of these services was "shut down". Not one of them.
250
24/11/2020 12:44:38 25 9
bbc
They HAVEN't shut down cancer so you're asking a question based on a false premise. They've shut down things like hip-ops because the anesthetists are too busy in ITU to gas for routine ops. My friend was treated for breast cancer last month: op within 3 weeks of diagnosis and 9 weeks of finding the lump.
258
24/11/2020 12:45:26 10 5
bbc
I think the graph makes this pretty plain. Looks to me like the red bit (Covid-19 related) fills the bit above the 5-year average line.
261
24/11/2020 12:45:47 20 9
bbc
Well said, from a cancer sufferer who is unable to access primary healthcare at my local hospital.
340
24/11/2020 12:59:01 14 5
bbc
If it hadn't been for the high number of COVID cases needing hospitalisation, they wouldn't have had to defer other less urgent treatments. What is your point exactly? People don't go to hospital for the fun of it .
371
24/11/2020 13:05:50 7 1
bbc
The very point of monitoring excess deaths is that it captures deaths directly and indirectly caused by CV19.
384
24/11/2020 13:07:48 5 5
bbc
Non of those things have been shut down.
482
Dai
24/11/2020 13:15:02 2 1
bbc
The data suggests majority is Covid unlike earlier surge
486
OFH
24/11/2020 13:24:00 8 0
bbc
The shutting of non-covid services are because of the surge in covid cases. More cases, more resources and staff get diverted from non-covid sectors, more absent staff due to illness. Also many diseases like cancer are at high risk for severe covid outcomes, meaning benefits of treatment might be outweighed by the risks. To stop these deaths you need to reduce covid cases.
634
24/11/2020 13:56:24 2 2
bbc
Without the lockdowns the NHS would have been overwhelmed and we would not be choosing who to save, because there would be no capacity to save people. We would be seeing the 3-4% death rate or higher that was the case in Wuhan before the treatment methods were improved.
The government response has been poor, but it has been better than doing nothing.
637
24/11/2020 13:56:44 0 0
bbc
They did. It's not as many as you're trying to make it out to be
641
24/11/2020 13:57:25 4 0
bbc
It is a false supposition to suppose the other excess deaths are as a result of the lockdown - they are as a result of the pandemic. Some people think it is a binary position - if you are treating Covid19 you are not treating other diseases. The problem is if you don't take the measures it will be impossible to treat the other diseases anyway as the hospitals would be utterly overwhelmed.
Got it?
661
24/11/2020 13:46:49 0 1
bbc
Exactly ... normally we have winter excess deaths anyway
https://docdro.id/eGdx1hh
665
24/11/2020 14:00:18 2 2
bbc
ONS data released today shows constant respiratory deaths (flu, pneumonia and covid) for the last 6 weeks. The increase in excess deaths during this 2nd wave is in those dying of other non-respiratory related issues; presumably aggravated by NHS rationing/neglect and other lockdown related causes (lack of exercise, depression etc.).
The key fact is that only 2,838 of the deaths (out of a Total 14,000 deaths) involved the Covid-19 virus. That is approx 20%. What BBC Reality and Fact Check should do is publish what were the causes of the other deaths eg heart failure, cancer, kidney failure, liver disease, drug overdose, suicide. Removed
689
24/11/2020 14:03:40 3 2
bbc
You speak as if the Drs and nurses on other services are sitting round doing nothing!. These services are not operating fully because Drs and nurses are being seconded from their departments to offer cover and support to the Covid wards.
6
24/11/2020 12:04:07 255 104
bbc
Does involved COVID mean caused by COVID.

No

Stop reporting misleading stats particularly around COVID deaths.

I know you love a sharp spike but lets have an article highlighting what involving COVID means. Does someone who dies in a car crash with COVID count?
59
24/11/2020 12:13:35 21 15
bbc
I believe they wouldn't count for the purposes of the PHE daily stats, but would count for the purposes of this misleading story. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
60
24/11/2020 12:13:55 115 10
bbc
A comparison with the average is meaningless without some idea of the year to year variation.
252
24/11/2020 12:44:45 46 5
bbc
This is the most important comment on here.
438
24/11/2020 13:16:07 4 13
bbc
Incorrect. It is a useful benchmark with which to indicate surging death rates. Its not claiming to be the only data available, just a useful summary of the impact covid is having. If you are unable to realise that, dont make silly comments on public articles.
493
24/11/2020 13:24:52 7 2
bbc
Totally agree. This article provides absolutely no context. If it's above the 5 year average that suggests there have been much lower numbers but also, potentially the same or higher.
549
Dai
24/11/2020 13:20:40 3 2
bbc
That is precisely why they have an 5 year average - it removes the statistical noise!
633
24/11/2020 13:56:15 10 6
bbc
In the winter of 2014/15 there were 28,000 excess deaths from normal flue.
Nothing in the media about that of course.
805
24/11/2020 14:24:14 1 3
bbc
Another stupid comment from someone who does not understand the data supplied or statistical compilation.
24/11/2020 15:33:48 2 1
bbc
Correct! A 5 year average does not tell us the "normal" death rate for this year. A possibly better indicator would be to follow the trend over the last 3 years & extrapolate, but ultimately the excess death figure could be much better or much worse & we cannot know.
24/11/2020 16:33:56 1 1
bbc
"A comparison with the average is meaningless without some idea of the year to year variation."

True. But I think there is enough misinformation and confusion over stats without delving into standard deviation.
24/11/2020 18:39:12 0 0
bbc
I have read that for a peak to be statistically significantly above the 5 year average it needs to be approximately 11% above the average 5 year baseline. Not sure if this is true, but if it is, it means this 2nd peak is now significant. It does mean that international comparison etc are imprecise.
25/11/2020 09:41:39 0 0
bbc
The ONS gives 497,700 registered deaths in England and Wales for 2014, which is the lowest total between then and 2019. The highest was 2018, with 539.340.
So far this year there have been 529,928. At over 10,000 a week till the end of the year (which is normal) we're going to be a lot higher than the worst year in the past 5. Also we had the highest weekly total of any year.
21
24/11/2020 12:08:28 65 13
bbc
The other 11,000 deaths are in the normal rage of deaths for this time of year. People die all the time, from accidents, foul play, illness(from cancer to flu), old age etc.
61
24/11/2020 12:14:05 8 5
bbc
I think that is Centuria's point!
26
Ian
24/11/2020 12:09:09 6 18
bbc
?? It's not just covid that makes people ill ...

?? ... so does being governed by Johnson ?? and the Conservatives
62
24/11/2020 12:14:22 3 4
bbc
FACTUAL EVIDENCE?? I THOUGHT NOT
There's an issue with counting deaths 'linked to Covid'. I have been asked by a doctor if I want paperwork 'rushing through', then they will happily put Covid as a reason - even if it wasn't. The figures can not be trusted I'm afraid. Removed
Don't forget they get £150 for every Covid death certificate Removed
123
24/11/2020 12:23:13 18 11
bbc
Well, when you make a statement claiming a doctor asked you that question, you are going to have to back that up with some specifics, like the doctor's name and the deceased person that this related to. This is a serious accusation against the medical profession.
296
aa
24/11/2020 12:50:56 8 1
bbc
That is a very serious accusation. Are you sure it is true? What paper work? Presumably you were ill. Was the doctor saying he/she would say you had COVID to get you an early appointment. How would that work? Why would the doctor risk his career to do that?

It doesn't make sense.
309
NMT
24/11/2020 12:53:48 5 0
bbc
You need to get the GMC involved in this. And the police. Falsifying official documents is a serious thing. They'll need evidence and such like...
786
24/11/2020 14:21:34 0 0
bbc
Contact the health secretary for an explanation.
792
24/11/2020 14:22:22 2 1
bbc
This is another prime example of a deliberate lie being told to try to influence public opinion. People making this sort of accusation publicly should not be allowed anonymity. Let them post the actual evidence.

It also disturbs me the number of up-votes it has been given. I suspect the ERG Tory Bots are hard at work!
6
24/11/2020 12:04:07 255 104
bbc
Does involved COVID mean caused by COVID.

No

Stop reporting misleading stats particularly around COVID deaths.

I know you love a sharp spike but lets have an article highlighting what involving COVID means. Does someone who dies in a car crash with COVID count?
64
24/11/2020 12:14:25 37 28
bbc
I know of one Covid recorded death last week, where the old dear died of a heart attack. Um, so, yes, the stats are misleading.
107
24/11/2020 12:20:32 33 24
bbc
I know of several people who have died in ITU because COVID-19, but because it was over 28 days from a positive result it does not get listed as the cause of death...
257
24/11/2020 12:45:19 5 2
bbc
And you're positive that Covid wasn't implicated in that heart attack?
you know of one yet still at least 12 morons at the time of me writing gave a thumbs down...that says all you need to know about the sheep who will throw themselves off a cliff when asked to do so. Removed
525
24/11/2020 13:33:08 4 0
bbc
So cut+dried of a heart attack. Absolutely not of Covid-19, the disease that reduces blood function & slows blood flow putting such strain on the heart that it fails.
41
24/11/2020 12:10:58 5 25
bbc
Please can we have an inquiry into the highest death toll in Europe and per capita higher than the US and get this shower out.

Sir Keir is the only option to heal our broken nation... we need a new Tony Blair after this fiasco, which has claimed the lives of many innocent OAPs thanks to Bojo and the tories, in case you have forgotten?
65
OwO
24/11/2020 12:14:28 5 2
bbc
Ladies & gents, here's a prime example of "twisting statistics to fit your argument". Although acknowledging that the per capita rate is important when it suits the poster, they only refer to absolute deaths in Europe. The truth shows that other countries in Europe continue to fare worse than us.

Captain hindsight is the answer to this? Laughable.
112
24/11/2020 12:21:16 1 6
bbc
There is NO twisting mate... every website shows that WE have the highest death rate in Europe and even more accurately *per capita* which is higher than the US based on population!!! - but do keep believing the Tory lies you are being fed and pray YOU dont become a statistic yourself eh
3
24/11/2020 12:03:14 3 16
bbc
I would. Keith is a poor name to be fair.
66
DC
24/11/2020 12:14:30 5 1
bbc
At least he managed to capitalise it.
67
24/11/2020 12:14:41 62 20
bbc
No mention during all of this about the fact that humans are living longer now than at any time in history. Did these professors forget that ?if a flu strain got into care homes it would have a devastating affect on them. They also don’t publish the mortality figures of each year. In 2018 over 17 million died world wide of all causes.
179
24/11/2020 12:34:16 46 1
bbc
About 8 years ago when my Mother was in a care home I was refused access when I had the flu - due to vulnerable residents.......8 years ago......
381
24/11/2020 13:07:08 5 0
bbc
Seriously only 17 million deaths? That seems incredibly low; for a population of 7billion that's only 0.2%. Think about it - if you live to 70 then 1 in 70 should die annually i.e. 1.4% or 98million. Shows the world's population is increasing very rapidly.
544
24/11/2020 13:38:38 3 1
bbc
Actually over 55 Million people die per year in the world - see https://ourworldindata.org/births-and-deaths
al
24/11/2020 15:55:22 3 0
bbc
It's amazing how dumb comments like this get so many up-ticks.
The age of covid-19 victims is well documented.
Most people in care homes are vaccinated against flu.
How do you know the death figure for 2018 if 'they don't publish' it?
50
24/11/2020 12:12:10 6 18
bbc
This is why Boris Johnson and his cabinet need to be put on trial. We need a Nurembery McCarthy hearing styled national trial in the UK Supreme Court.

We had 2 months to prepare for COVID, and they did nothing. They allowed a torrent of infections back in February and March, which as an island this country could easily have stopped at the airport.
68
24/11/2020 12:14:54 8 3
bbc
Lockdown4ever? Okay that seems a reasonable response... have you considered being sectioned?
69
24/11/2020 12:15:06 551 155
bbc
Ay 82, the average age at death tells you all you need to know - the world is in the middle of destroying lives to save those dying from natural causes anyway.
Or are the far greater numbers dying as a result of GP neglect, cancelled operations, fear of attending A&E and the inevitable abject poverty caused by mass unemployment not matter as much?
96
GFT
24/11/2020 12:18:38 187 65
bbc
Agree entirely
Fantastic provision of 'evidence' there. Got some stats to support that? No? Is that because you made it up, or because you are a russian troll? Or both? Or just a poorly educated conspiracy theorist? Removed
483
Dai
24/11/2020 13:15:53 51 20
bbc
An 80 year old man has a nine year life expectancy- are you happy to deprive him of those extra years of life
502
al
24/11/2020 13:28:01 42 8
bbc
Life expectancy at 82 is about 8 years, on average.
These people are not 'dying', any more than you are.
535
jim
24/11/2020 13:35:37 13 8
bbc
Greater numbers are NOT dying as a result of other factors (the excess death graph proves it). Even in March 13% of deaths were under 65, that's a lot of productive expertise to lose from the economy. Recessions are good for health (probably because we work ourselves to death when our bosses need to expand faster than the competition).
610
24/11/2020 13:52:17 30 2
bbc
The funny thing about you using a misleading statistic about the average age of death of those dying from CV19 is that you say they would have died anyway (yes, but some wouldn't have for a few years yet) & then go on to talk about those who have died from other things forgetting, conveniently, that their average age would be around the 82-year-old ballpark figure!
618
24/11/2020 13:54:54 35 11
bbc
Nick you are wrong. A live needs to be protected and saved at whatever age. I guess you’d be happy to sacrifice yourself if you were a pensioner right now wouldn’t you.
655
24/11/2020 13:59:28 23 2
bbc
Of course the other thing you conveniently forget is that the death-rate would have been a lot higher without the half-hearted restrictions we have had.

Let's picture your favoured scenario's effect on the NHS: you assume, wrongly, that it would not have been over-stretched, & that operations etc. would not have been cancelled.

You assume people would not have self-isolated with CV19 rampant!
671
24/11/2020 14:01:32 25 7
bbc
You've just demonstrated how little you actually know. You have not got the slightest clue about the long term impact of having had this virus could be for a start. The fact that you'd put yourself at such a risk, when the end is in sight, just tell us everything.
762
24/11/2020 14:15:56 4 1
bbc
But Nick.. Don't we all live forever? Oh my god! You mean one day I'm going to die as well!
802
24/11/2020 14:23:40 5 2
bbc
And only 339 deaths under 60 with no underlying condition.
901
24/11/2020 14:46:06 4 3
bbc
Please note that many of those nearing the end of their life would sooner spend it with loved ones or getting visits from loved ones rather than being isolated for their own safety and without their consent. So are the politicians really trying to protect them?
911
BFM
24/11/2020 14:48:42 6 5
bbc
Hard to believe this is upvoted by 3 to one.

Its almost impossible to get the majority to understand if we didn't have the lockdowns all the numbers would be vastly different in particular the number of Covid deaths would far outweigh all the others.
948
24/11/2020 14:57:20 7 3
bbc
Given that it isn't just the deaths that are an issue, but the inevitable demand on the NHS, you can't just stop treating Covid. All that would do is create more hospital patients. That is maths, as opposed to medicine.

Are there any other diseases you want to ignore due to high fatality averages? Lung cancer, bowel cancer, leukaemia?
980
24/11/2020 15:06:43 6 1
bbc
The average means that many younger have also died. At the start they didnt know much about the virus and who were more vulnerable than others. They didnt know the longer term health impacts of catching it. Whether you could catch it twice, would the second time be milder or not. They also had no idea if it would mutate significantly and become more deadly to more people and they stull fear this.
995
24/11/2020 15:09:12 11 1
bbc
82 is the median age, not the average. So 50% of those dying are younger than 82.
How will the 'GP neglect, cancelled operations, fear of attending A&E' be solved by letting hospitals fill up with Covid patients? Or should Covid patients just be abandoned because half of them are pretty old? Why not ban all those over 82 from hospitals?
24/11/2020 15:38:07 11 1
bbc
Deaths would be ten times worse if measures weren't taken to limit the spread. Not difficult to see the effects on the economy if that many people were dying. The lockdown would happen anyway, but with the deaths on top.
Stop thinking this isn't serious. It's very serious.
Trs
24/11/2020 16:10:56 8 2
bbc
I’m glad I’m not an 82 year old in your household. First sign of a sniffle and I’d be off to Switzerland.
24/11/2020 16:35:06 0 3
bbc
Agree. To begin with the death rate due to Covid was disproportionately high and lockdown needed. But now the NHS needs to get back to treating people, of all ages, for other illnesses and the economy opened up (with hands, face, space enforced).
24/11/2020 17:57:06 1 0
bbc
Average, one person is 100 years old, two each are 20 years old, the average is gives an average age when rounded up of 47 years.
24/11/2020 18:25:06 2 0
bbc
So if a 50 year old dies of covid is that a natural cause because a virus comes via nature ? With your sort of reasoning perhaps we should scrap the health service altogether whatever the ailment may be and accept the natural ecological balance for all.
24/11/2020 20:24:23 0 1
bbc
Or maybe the histrionics of people like you are to blame...who speak from a position of supreme ignorance!
25/11/2020 01:24:46 1 0
bbc
Monday morning my workmate told me his cousin who is a professional body builder found out his friend has passed away barely a week after testing positive for covid19.He was also a preofessional body builder and strongman hoping to qualify for the Britain's strongest man competition,he was in his late 30s.
25/11/2020 12:26:36 0 0
bbc
I guess you missed the report that a 10 year old child of Covid recently. He did have epilepsy for sure - but would in all probability have lived a lot longer BUT FOR Covid and there have been many younger people who have died. Focussing on just one stat draws a veil over the real misery out there.
8
24/11/2020 12:04:20 2 46
bbc
and still there are some who think Covid is not bad?? you basically have a 20% chance of dying from covid if you get it..
70
24/11/2020 12:15:15 3 1
bbc
Derek, go back to bed!
12
24/11/2020 12:05:32 86 20
bbc
So, what about the 11,000 other deaths not linked to COVID then?
71
24/11/2020 12:15:32 6 11
bbc
They probably were linked to Covid in as much as these people may not have received appropriate treatment as the beds were taken up by Covid patients.
58
24/11/2020 12:13:22 704 123
bbc
Excess deaths.

Can we also look into how many of these excess deaths were as a result of shutting down all services (eg cardiology, cancer, diabetic clinic, lung disease clinic, transplant etc).

All nations say they don't want to get to a point where they have to chose who to save, that choice has already been made by shutting down other essential NHS care.
72
24/11/2020 12:15:36 185 32
bbc
33 consecutive weeks (bar 1) of 700+ extra deaths at home. We desperately need some balance, or this stat is going to get worse in the medium to long term.
644
24/11/2020 13:57:51 3 0
bbc
"Extra deaths at home" that would have happened in a hospital. These are not extra deaths, these are displaced deaths.
73
24/11/2020 12:15:38 14 13
bbc
Can't trust you any more BBC. You've proved unreliable in the past and I don't trust your stats any more.

Don't trust HM Govt. & SAGE anymore either

It's been going on for years but HMG has lost the trust of the people. I'm not sure how you can get it back either.
82
24/11/2020 12:16:59 7 8
bbc
Does anybody trust you?
86
24/11/2020 12:17:59 1 5
bbc
They will never get it back we've been sold out for pharma profits
88
GFT
24/11/2020 12:18:04 1 3
bbc
Well said and I entirely agree. These stats are corrupt or falsely weighted.
91
24/11/2020 12:18:24 2 5
bbc
Did the nasty NHS want to make sure it had capacity to admit people into critical care units, which meant pubs had to close?

Diddums.
74
24/11/2020 12:15:54 38 3
bbc
A look into how we count 'covid-19' deaths compared to other nations would be nice. 2 weeks ago France was averaging TWICE as many cases a day as the UK, yet avg number of Covid deaths are the same as ours. Why? We conduct twice as many tests as France so it's not a case of France picking up more asymptomatic cases. Germany avg cases over last month 20% less than ours, deaths 60% less. Why?
232
24/11/2020 12:42:02 8 10
bbc
Rate of deaths in France is higher than the UK and Germany are better at it
592
24/11/2020 13:48:31 9 0
bbc
Either the French and the Germans are better at treating patients with covid or the patients in this country are more susceptible to severe effects. I suspect it is a combination. I certainly think the UK population is in worse condition than the French and Germans. Too much junk food and vitamin D deficiency.
24/11/2020 15:46:29 1 0
bbc
Both France and the UK have a very high BAME % of their population, Germany doesn't!
50
24/11/2020 12:12:10 6 18
bbc
This is why Boris Johnson and his cabinet need to be put on trial. We need a Nurembery McCarthy hearing styled national trial in the UK Supreme Court.

We had 2 months to prepare for COVID, and they did nothing. They allowed a torrent of infections back in February and March, which as an island this country could easily have stopped at the airport.
They also put untested Covid patents into carehomes (same as in Scotland) and sent untested students all over the country spreading the virus into every corner of the nation. Funny you mention Nuremburg... because the final solution springs to mind. Removed
76
24/11/2020 12:16:21 73 5
bbc
more data would be better - highlighting 1 week is not indicative of excess deaths over the year. Plus, mortality by age groups would also be useful data. This year, deaths up to the age of 49 are fractionally below recent years - the main age group for excess deaths is 80+ of which over half occurred in care homes. This is important data to share rather than a headline figure.
476
24/11/2020 13:22:21 19 4
bbc
Presenting specific demographic data WITHOUT summary context data is a bad use of data. This is just the summary, and doesnt claim to be amything else. If you dont understand data analysis, dont go making misguided accusations about it.
764
24/11/2020 14:16:07 0 0
bbc
ONS my friend
964
24/11/2020 15:01:50 1 0
bbc
But we already had a period of excess deaths during the first wave. There should be fewer (than average) deaths because the most vulnerable (who would have died later in the year) died earlier. It's scary that we're seeing another increase in excess deaths, but it would still have been bad if the average was maintained for the rest of the year.
24/11/2020 16:24:46 0 0
bbc
Are ther more 80+ year olds this year though ?
There's an issue with counting deaths 'linked to Covid'. I have been asked by a doctor if I want paperwork 'rushing through', then they will happily put Covid as a reason - even if it wasn't. The figures can not be trusted I'm afraid. Removed
Don't forget they get £150 for every Covid death certificate Removed
78
24/11/2020 12:16:41 5 1
bbc
So lets all start going shopping in town and to the pub evernight !
97
24/11/2020 12:18:51 2 2
bbc
yep, don't know about every night though, but you go for it.
134
24/11/2020 12:24:47 0 2
bbc
Why do experts say that lockdown doesn’t work?
79
24/11/2020 12:16:42 5 8
bbc
Lorrie Elle - Yes - you missed the lies and spin from Cabinet members and the bile and cover-ups spouted by the right wing media. From the outset the mantra was 'we have taken the best medical & scientific advice'. NO they did not - but it was a Get Out of jail Card from the outset. They will end up blaming doctors.
237
24/11/2020 12:22:19 0 1
bbc
Agree. Remember "Weapons of Mass Destruction"!
80
24/11/2020 12:16:42 8 9
bbc
But can you trust any of the figures?Daily Mail reveals country shut down on made up figures
95
24/11/2020 12:18:36 11 7
bbc
The Daily Mail???? Are you having a laugh?
81
24/11/2020 12:16:56 10 1
bbc
Interesting to jump forward 5 years and see if it evened out.
24/11/2020 19:32:55 0 0
bbc
Given that we all die eventually it will certainly even out at some point.
73
24/11/2020 12:15:38 14 13
bbc
Can't trust you any more BBC. You've proved unreliable in the past and I don't trust your stats any more.

Don't trust HM Govt. & SAGE anymore either

It's been going on for years but HMG has lost the trust of the people. I'm not sure how you can get it back either.
82
24/11/2020 12:16:59 7 8
bbc
Does anybody trust you?
31
24/11/2020 12:09:31 17 19
bbc
The BBC doesn't care about them. Never has and never will.
83
24/11/2020 12:17:22 16 2
bbc
Seriously? Countless stories about road traffic accidents, murders, cancers, strokes, dementia.... Where the hell have you been!?
101
24/11/2020 12:19:43 11 4
bbc
Where has he been?

On his own nice little planet somewhere, most likely...
84
24/11/2020 12:17:38 9 7
bbc
It would be nice to have factual data, and informed factual news pieces by reporters who know what they're talking about. Sadly we have neither.
25
24/11/2020 12:09:06 202 150
bbc
You can manipulate and argue about the stats all you want. The simple truth is that Covid is by far the biggest factor behind the excess deaths. Care to offer an alternative reason?
85
OwO
24/11/2020 12:17:46 31 22
bbc
The restriction of services due to the lockdown. As COVID has an impact on these, they're easily described as "involved COVID".

The stats are there to scare people like yourself who lack the critical thinking to look at them beyond face value.
142
24/11/2020 12:26:39 12 8
bbc
The number of excess deaths closely correlates with covid prevalance (see article). It doesn't correlate with lockdown periods.

The various lockdowns will have avoided some deaths (you'd be very unlucky to be killed in a car crash while locked down at home, for example), and triggered some.

A bit of critical thinking should lead you to think the excess deaths are largely covid and under-estimate
73
24/11/2020 12:15:38 14 13
bbc
Can't trust you any more BBC. You've proved unreliable in the past and I don't trust your stats any more.

Don't trust HM Govt. & SAGE anymore either

It's been going on for years but HMG has lost the trust of the people. I'm not sure how you can get it back either.
86
24/11/2020 12:17:59 1 5
bbc
They will never get it back we've been sold out for pharma profits
1
24/11/2020 12:01:06 16 10
bbc
Increased deaths in a pandemic. Who would have thought it.
87
24/11/2020 12:18:01 3 1
bbc
Yeah 80,000 from Hong Kong flu in 1968
73
24/11/2020 12:15:38 14 13
bbc
Can't trust you any more BBC. You've proved unreliable in the past and I don't trust your stats any more.

Don't trust HM Govt. & SAGE anymore either

It's been going on for years but HMG has lost the trust of the people. I'm not sure how you can get it back either.
88
GFT
24/11/2020 12:18:04 1 3
bbc
Well said and I entirely agree. These stats are corrupt or falsely weighted.
89
24/11/2020 12:18:11 14 9
bbc
Just not any problem. In the longer term it will average out at the normal rate. Once each.

Numbers are tiny in a population of our size. Tiny blip in a few months. Media induced nonsense issue.
50
24/11/2020 12:12:10 6 18
bbc
This is why Boris Johnson and his cabinet need to be put on trial. We need a Nurembery McCarthy hearing styled national trial in the UK Supreme Court.

We had 2 months to prepare for COVID, and they did nothing. They allowed a torrent of infections back in February and March, which as an island this country could easily have stopped at the airport.
90
24/11/2020 12:18:23 3 2
bbc
You realize that the vast majority of infections occured from Brits returning from European holidays, many returning from skiing holidays in Northern Italy, and other high risk areas. Never mind, why let facts get in the way of your political prejudice.
73
24/11/2020 12:15:38 14 13
bbc
Can't trust you any more BBC. You've proved unreliable in the past and I don't trust your stats any more.

Don't trust HM Govt. & SAGE anymore either

It's been going on for years but HMG has lost the trust of the people. I'm not sure how you can get it back either.
91
24/11/2020 12:18:24 2 5
bbc
Did the nasty NHS want to make sure it had capacity to admit people into critical care units, which meant pubs had to close?

Diddums.
124
OwO
24/11/2020 12:23:16 3 2
bbc
We had the Nightingale hospitals for that, which went mostly unused.

Awww, does the truth hurt? :(
92
24/11/2020 12:18:25 12 13
bbc
How many of these deaths are attributed to suicide caused by the government and this lock down/isolation
93
24/11/2020 12:18:26 38 22
bbc
NHS official stats consistently 200+ lower than media :- https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-daily-deaths/ . No detail is ever given about numbers of people actually recovering and being discharged, or is a hospital admission an actual death warrant ? I would also like some indication of the detailed analysis regarding lockdown, maybe the public are just too thick
151
24/11/2020 12:28:25 33 10
bbc
You keep posting that link, despite being told several times that the first line of the article clearly says "patients who have died in hospitals in England"

Why do you think that number might be less than the UK-wide figures?

If I was cynical, I'd say you are deliberately trying to confuse the issue...

There might be a simpler explanation, but it isn't that you are right!
24/11/2020 15:12:20 5 0
bbc
Isn't it because not all people die in a hospital setting (therefore excluded from NHS data).
jj
24/11/2020 16:35:44 0 2
bbc
The Gov believe that the public are too thick. T
his is why Gov(Cummings) have used 3 words only - hands face space/ get Brexit done/ take back control/ build build build/check change go/build back better.
I guess Gov is right as the public voted for Brexit and 5% min drop in GDP Covid aside - https://ukandeu.ac.uk/the-uk-economy-brexit-vs-covid-19/
94
fos
24/11/2020 12:18:29 236 53
bbc
My mother in law died of Covid.
She spent spring and summer in strict lockdown and when she went out in September she had become much weaker and less conditioned.As a result she fell broke her hip ,a chain of events followed were she failed to recover properly then developed sepsis on the day she ought to have gone home ,within a week death.
Cause of death “lockdown” alas they refused to put that
I was worried that was going to be one of those awful mother-in-law jokes. So happy it wasnt. Removed
716
24/11/2020 14:08:09 26 23
bbc
This is just a made up story and the BBC should be stopping these charlatans from spreading this dangerous nonsense.
909
24/11/2020 14:48:31 25 10
bbc
Condolences, if true, but your comment has undertones of a certain agenda.
925
24/11/2020 14:52:45 19 9
bbc
You had me until ''cause of death - lockdown''
951
24/11/2020 14:58:04 7 17
bbc
very sad. condolences to you and your family. but this death 'unimportant' in the grand order of covid scaremongering.
24/11/2020 15:41:45 11 9
bbc
So sorry for your loss and I totally agree with you, the number of people dying because of lockdown and health services being withdrawn will far eclipse ACTUAL covid deaths and I doubt we will ever know the truth about how many have actually died from the virus itself
al
24/11/2020 15:42:43 10 9
bbc
Nonsense.
24/11/2020 17:09:14 11 4
bbc
How did she become 'less conditioned' from staying at home for a few months? She could have stayed active, done some yoga or simple exercises, kept mobile with housework or gardening. It's a bit silly to say she fell and broke her hip due to lockdown, that could have happened anyway.
24/11/2020 17:18:53 9 0
bbc
Well, you could extend that to: 'cause of death: birth' if you wanted to as it's certainly true.
24/11/2020 18:29:15 0 3
bbc
Same thing happened to my dad, he weakened through lack of his normal physical routine of walking to shops etc., He started falling over alot and ended up in ICU because of a bang to the head. If there was no lockdown he would still be alive
80
24/11/2020 12:16:42 8 9
bbc
But can you trust any of the figures?Daily Mail reveals country shut down on made up figures
95
24/11/2020 12:18:36 11 7
bbc
The Daily Mail???? Are you having a laugh?
116
OwO
24/11/2020 12:21:57 1 5
bbc
I know you think you're real smart and upstanding by refusing to look at such a paper, but what a shocking attitude to take.

The truth doesn't care who writes it, or where it's published. Similar papers have shown massive revelations in the past. If your prejudice causes you to live in misinformation, you're just as bad as those you mock (yet worse because you don't even recognise it).
143
24/11/2020 12:26:41 1 4
bbc
Fair point, but if you are saying you trust the BBC anymore than The Daily Mail, you are having a laugh.
69
24/11/2020 12:15:06 551 155
bbc
Ay 82, the average age at death tells you all you need to know - the world is in the middle of destroying lives to save those dying from natural causes anyway.
Or are the far greater numbers dying as a result of GP neglect, cancelled operations, fear of attending A&E and the inevitable abject poverty caused by mass unemployment not matter as much?
96
GFT
24/11/2020 12:18:38 187 65
bbc
Agree entirely
283
24/11/2020 12:48:44 2 2
bbc
Terrific
78
24/11/2020 12:16:41 5 1
bbc
So lets all start going shopping in town and to the pub evernight !
97
24/11/2020 12:18:51 2 2
bbc
yep, don't know about every night though, but you go for it.
40
24/11/2020 12:10:55 324 114
bbc
In the UK there are on average 600,000 deaths a year. "Data from national statisticians show there were almost 14,000 deaths in the week ending 13 November." which is about normal, allowing for variations year on year and the new Covid-19 flu.
Put another way, we are in our second lockdown because of a 10% variation in deaths, which equates to less than 0.1% of the UK population. Worth it?
98
24/11/2020 12:19:21 140 68
bbc
These are deaths that involve a totally discredited PCR Test, and I’m sure almost all were with co-morbidities.
I can’t tell you how many, because they like to shroud this in mystery.
Why Journalists don’t constantly ask them why they run the PCR Test at 40 cycles, when the recommended rate is 30 cycles….I have no idea.
213
24/11/2020 12:39:21 23 9
bbc
in Polymerase Chain Reaction testing, 40 cycles of denaturing and synthesizing new nucleic acids increases the number of exact copies.

Not sure why you claim it to be discredited. Can you provide a link?
725
24/11/2020 14:09:58 4 0
bbc
In terms of co-morbidities 50% of those over the age of 60 have at least one condition that would be regarded as a co-morbidity. 30-35% of those from 50-60.

For some of those the co-morbidity is the likes of diabetes (with which many people live full and long lives for many decades.), others include high blood pressure, obesity and various other conditions that people live many decades with.
968
24/11/2020 15:02:56 3 3
bbc
The "recommended number of cycles" is actually 17. They are ramping it up to 45 and at that point it is 100% unreliable. If they can't find evidence at 15 cycles then there isn't any valid evidence at all. What they're doing is picking at fragments and calling it a case! And, yes, it's discredited because it's being used for a purpose that was never intended or designed for.
972
24/11/2020 15:04:44 1 2
bbc
An edited video of Dominic Raab saying "93% of tests are false positives" when he was referring to airport tests as opposed to PCR dampens your fire.
Likewise, documents manipulated by antivax lunatics with words not actually referring to Covid are not evidence either, but simply a ploy to fool vulnerable people into believing the virus is either rare or a hoax (needs no vaccine)

Sorry, Doc.
24/11/2020 16:40:45 2 1
bbc
If you have no idea why Journalists don't ask this you could always google the UK guidance on PCR results for physicians which is freely available. It explains why PCR results of >30 may be significant in infection control (An individual with that score could be at the early stages of infection and needs to be categorised accordingly)
52
DC
24/11/2020 12:12:50 11 10
bbc
Gor your information the population has grown by 3% since 2015 thats about 2 million people. Deaths are currently 20% above normal.
99
OwO
24/11/2020 12:19:30 6 7
bbc
But not 20% of the population. 580k deaths last year, increased by 20% is 696k. Population is still going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay up.
941
24/11/2020 14:55:59 2 0
bbc
Population increase, babies born and migration (tend to be younger people), does not explain the increase in older people dying (people who should technically be enjoying a higher life expectancy).
56
24/11/2020 12:13:13 10 14
bbc
This year has been a real eye opener. Too many people have broken rules and think they know best regarding social distancing. I've called friends and family members out on their total disregard for the laws and safety of others. Most of these people are Corbynites. They do as they choose. Covid sympathisers. They'll tell you the figures are made up... therefore they can do as they please.
100
24/11/2020 12:19:38 2 4
bbc
politics nothing to do with the "rules "