England and Wales top seeds in RWC draw
13/12/2020
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sport
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rugbyunion
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Wales and England are among the top seeds for the 2023 Rugby World Cup draw on Monday, with Ireland in band two and Scotland in the third band.
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smokeyjoe
13/12/2020 16:30:49
22
10
bbc
Baffling how wales are top seeded and that's from a welshman. 2 seasons of below par performances should surely have dropped us below Ireland or even france
It was Capped ages ago before those losses the rankings are bizarre at the best of times
As the article clearly explains, the rankings were determined in January (pre-Covid) when Wales were in a much better place. The proposal is to determine rankings closer to tournament. This would have been a far more sensible alternative - Covid might no longer be a factor, teams have much longer together and several tourneys passed. France are in the wrong tier for a start, the 6N will show this.
Lol two seasons of below par performances!!! Maybe this season but last season grand slam winners and world cup semi final!! Below par really!
Always good to look beyond 2020 - what a year - but this really does seem to be too early for the draw; it’s too unreliable as a guide to form in 3 years’ time. Also, shame this WC will be in France - again. Ireland would have been a great host, or an outsider like Argentina or Italy.
Argentina is a southern hemisphere nation and in 2023 it is the turn of the northern hemisphere to host. One problem which IRB resolutely fails to deal with is that there are only a few countries with the financial resources to host a World Cup. Surely something should be done about that, especially in the light of the brilliant way in which Japan hosted the last tournament.
Wales being top seeds is bizarre. When did they take the rankings from?
Because of all the disruption this year, teams such as SA having not played at all for example, they've taken the rankings from January when Wales were 4th (could be wrong on that, but at least one of the top teams) and used them for these seeds
See above.
It used to be the case that rankings were strongly influenced, above and beyond the relevant ranking points, by the team's performance in the previous RWC. I don't know whether or not that still applies, but the top four seeds do happen to be the four semi-finalists from the last competition.
The organisation decided that due to the COVID disruption that they would use the teams’ performance in the previous World Cup to decide upon ranking. It has its flaws but it is difficult to know what else they could have done. COVID is still a factor and many teams are rebuilding, with new coaches and players so performances this year will not reflect very much either on ranking.
Still a danger of getting our 2 bogey teams, Australia and Fiji. Want a bet that New Zealand get Japan and Italy?
Wales being top seeds is bizarre. When did they take the rankings from?
As the article clearly explains, the rankings were determined in January (pre-Covid) when Wales were in a much better place. The proposal is to determine rankings closer to tournament. This would have been a far more sensible alternative - Covid might no longer be a factor, teams have much longer together and several tourneys passed. France are in the wrong tier for a start, the 6N will show this.
Those band 2 nations will have fingers tightly crossed in the hopes of getting Wales
Wales being top seeds is bizarre. When did they take the rankings from?
There’s a Group of death in there somewhere with Sc and Arg in Pot 3. Never mind an all B&I top three in a group: anyone else fancy seeing NZ, Oz and Arg drawn together?! Conversely, one top seed could get Japan, Italy, then eg Uruguay and Namibia.
So much depends on the draw - a top pool side could look nailed on for at least the s-f - or struggle to get beyond the group stages.
So much depends on the draw - a top pool side could look nailed on for at least the s-f - or struggle to get beyond the group stages.
Or France and Fiji
Always found it weird how rugby does their WC draws 3 years in advance. A lot could change in that time. For all it's faults, FIFA doing theirs in the December before their WC is at least logical. Rugby should follow suit in that regard
Agreed. There was already talk about changing it after 2015 so I’m surprised they’ve only just recommended it now.
There isn’t much I would say rugby should follow rugby in but I concur.
Many things dont make sense when it comes to World Rugby, this is an organisation that keeps making big noises about expanding the game globally. But has had their showpiece competition stuck at 20 teams since 1999 ? Also if Romania hadn't been disqualified from the last RWC for fielding an ineligible player in qualifiers, and Russia not come in. It would of been the same 20 sides in 2019 as 2015.
It's to do with planning for fan numbers in different areas of the host country. They need plenty of time to plan hotels, transport links, policing etc. Some teams attract a much bigger fan base.
Problem rugby has is, outside World Cup, there’s little mixing of competitions. 6N play among themselves , RC does same. T2 get the occasional bone thrown to them in the shape of “development tours”. But you can’t use a “saxons” or Scot/Wales/Ire B team games for ranking
The reality is, imho, if WC places were on the line it would endanger Lions tours & those are massive money spinners for T1.
The reality is, imho, if WC places were on the line it would endanger Lions tours & those are massive money spinners for T1.
Whether you’re in Band 1 or Band 2 it’s Italy you want to draw from Band 3 to all but guarantee your place in the 1/4 finals.
Scotland, Argentina and Fiji are all capable of qualifying.
Wales won’t fancy drawing France and Argentina
Scotland, Argentina and Fiji are all capable of qualifying.
Wales won’t fancy drawing France and Argentina
Erm, Wales (IRB rank 9th) are in Band 1 and France (IRB rank 4th) are in band 2! Simply unfair.
Whilst the Wales situation is an anomaly caused by a bad run, they were WC semi-finalists. France are only just above the team on 5th place and way behind the team in third. They had also been aided by Australia two draws against Argentina. Also worth noting during the last world cup Wales topped their group, France did not and Wales beat France in the Quarter final.
What ever the decisions that deemed the positions in pools already, the RWC is always going to bring something that nobody planned for. Look at Japan beating SA and England failing to get out of the group stages. No team will have a walk over as every team thought of as a minnow will play like their lives depend on it. And that's why we all love it
Remember Wales were once third seeds due to rankings being taken at a point in time. That created a ‘group of death’ in the 2015 World Cup. And we all know what happened next ..:
Yup, they won their own personal World Cup Final, celebrate it still five+ years later, but then disappeared quietly, without trace in the quarters in 2015. It would take a freakish risk in form and loads of luck in the tourney itself for any third seeded nation ever to come close to winning the World Cup.
And if they where taken today Wales would again be in the third seed Tier as they are now ranked 9th but it’s really stupid to decide seeding 12 months before the draw.
Wales have improved this year but I still think they should have to go through qualifying with the likes of Romania etc. Would be sending the right message.
As usual it will be the same tedious same old / same old.
Winner from - ABs, engurland, maybe Aussies / SA
It’s in France but they will be as chaotic as always and would need fair amount luck to win the thing
This is why rugger will always play 2nd fiddle to footie. The predictability and the unwillingness of the top tier nations to foster the game globally. Short sighted self preservation
Winner from - ABs, engurland, maybe Aussies / SA
It’s in France but they will be as chaotic as always and would need fair amount luck to win the thing
This is why rugger will always play 2nd fiddle to footie. The predictability and the unwillingness of the top tier nations to foster the game globally. Short sighted self preservation
No I expect France, England & Japan to provide serious opposition to NZ, Australia & SA.
Football's world cup has been around 90 years and only 8 teams have won it and no one outside Europe since 2002. No emerging nations are getting a look in. Money completely rules that sport now.
There's only ever been 8 winners of the football WC and that's been going since 1950.
Rugger?
Have a word with yourself.
Have a word with yourself.
Whether you’re in Band 1 or Band 2 it’s Italy you want to draw from Band 3 to all but guarantee your place in the 1/4 finals.
Scotland, Argentina and Fiji are all capable of qualifying.
Wales won’t fancy drawing France and Argentina
Scotland, Argentina and Fiji are all capable of qualifying.
Wales won’t fancy drawing France and Argentina
As usual it will be the same tedious same old / same old.
Winner from - ABs, engurland, maybe Aussies / SA
It’s in France but they will be as chaotic as always and would need fair amount luck to win the thing
This is why rugger will always play 2nd fiddle to footie. The predictability and the unwillingness of the top tier nations to foster the game globally. Short sighted self preservation
Winner from - ABs, engurland, maybe Aussies / SA
It’s in France but they will be as chaotic as always and would need fair amount luck to win the thing
This is why rugger will always play 2nd fiddle to footie. The predictability and the unwillingness of the top tier nations to foster the game globally. Short sighted self preservation
Those band 2 nations will have fingers tightly crossed in the hopes of getting Wales
??
In 3 years time Wales will be even more of an omnishambles.
So much can change before next WC starts, 3 from band 1 could end up as equivalent band 2 teams at the start of the tournament. Similarly 2 of band 3 have the potential not just to be band 2, but even band 1. So whatever group of death scenarios arise tomorrow, when I comes to 2023, the relative team strengths will be very different.
Wrong time to group. But whichever way they are grouped at this stage doesn't really matter as one of the dominant teams in 2023 will lift the WC. The situation will have to change dramatically between now and then for it not to be either France, NZ, England or SA.
completely agree but it's a great shame these aren't the 4 teams in the top seeding group - would keep them apart until the semi-finals
France? You must be joking. I am not a soccer fan but at least the world cups and even the European Championships can have a number of potential winners. Since the decline of Australia, this is a 3 horse race.
Only 8 teams have won FIFA WC (21 comps). 4 have won the RWC in 9. So if France win that's 5 from 10 (looking a good shout now...bar the French collapse). Teams that could possibly win it in a good year France, Ireland, Wales, possibly Argentina. Things don't look too different...
World cup semi final in which we lost convincingly only after scraping past a 14 man French squad. Albeit the grand slam but considering that is literally a Few months from being 2 years. In mean time we have performed that well that we have dropped to 9th in world rankings. Behind 3 home nation teams (eng,ire,Scot, and france). Again tell me how wales deserve it?
Wales have improved this year but I still think they should have to go through qualifying with the likes of Romania etc. Would be sending the right message.
Nothing to forgive but the best Welsh speaking nation this yeah hasn't been Wales...
Yup, they won their own personal World Cup Final, celebrate it still five+ years later, but then disappeared quietly, without trace in the quarters in 2015. It would take a freakish risk in form and loads of luck in the tourney itself for any third seeded nation ever to come close to winning the World Cup.
Hardly disappeared quietly. Lost narrowly to South Africa with a very depleted team. Take that chip off your shoulder and move it to the other one.
They were leading SA with 76 mins gone in that quarter final mate, and they were decimated by injuries fro group stages. Hardly disappeared quietly. Get your facts right before spouting such tripe Simon.
Argentina in the third group of seeds and were one of the most impressive nations this autumn. They have incredible talent at their disposal and a young squad, wouldn't be surprising if they went to the semis again.
How are Wales seeded when they are currently ranked 9th in the World. Joke of a seeding system. Nightmare for them will be a draw against Ireland or Australia & Argentina.
They finished 4th at 2019 World Cup...simple
Because of the pandemic, and lack of matches played this year. World Rugby used the rankings as they were at start of 2020, although I agree Wales wouldn't be anywhere near been seeded if it was on current form.
As usual it will be the same tedious same old / same old.
Winner from - ABs, engurland, maybe Aussies / SA
It’s in France but they will be as chaotic as always and would need fair amount luck to win the thing
This is why rugger will always play 2nd fiddle to footie. The predictability and the unwillingness of the top tier nations to foster the game globally. Short sighted self preservation
Winner from - ABs, engurland, maybe Aussies / SA
It’s in France but they will be as chaotic as always and would need fair amount luck to win the thing
This is why rugger will always play 2nd fiddle to footie. The predictability and the unwillingness of the top tier nations to foster the game globally. Short sighted self preservation
As usual it will be the same tedious same old / same old.
Winner from - ABs, engurland, maybe Aussies / SA
It’s in France but they will be as chaotic as always and would need fair amount luck to win the thing
This is why rugger will always play 2nd fiddle to footie. The predictability and the unwillingness of the top tier nations to foster the game globally. Short sighted self preservation
Winner from - ABs, engurland, maybe Aussies / SA
It’s in France but they will be as chaotic as always and would need fair amount luck to win the thing
This is why rugger will always play 2nd fiddle to footie. The predictability and the unwillingness of the top tier nations to foster the game globally. Short sighted self preservation
If you want to win the WC you have to play the best teams at some stage so the groups don't matter so much,
In which case why not just make the tournament for the top 4/8 tier 1 nations only and base it on the previous months rankings? It's by letting the smaller nations, like Japan, Fiji, Samoa etc, qualify and get into the groups do they stand a chance of getting better. Or in your world do they simply not matter?
Looks almost certain it will be England Australia Argentina then in the same group
If FIFA can do their world cup draw less than a year before the comp, why can"t rugby do the same?
Stupidity
Wales? Hahaha.
You also said that in 2015.......the rest is history. Wales beat you at HQ with half a team lol.
A lot can change in 3 years. Let's be honest, the winner will be either France, England, New Zealand or South Africa. Australia always do well in a World Cup year too.
Wales? Hahaha.
Wales you can't be serious the poorest team in the uk by a distance, Scotland and Argentina in group 3 really. Far to far away to decide these things.
How and on what planet are Wales a Top seed side?
That's just a joke.
It must be.
Whoever gets them in the group will be living it and use it as warm-up.
I'm still in shock
That's just a joke.
It must be.
Whoever gets them in the group will be living it and use it as warm-up.
I'm still in shock
If you read the article you'll find out how it has come about. I hope this helps.
A bit like Glasgow and Edinburgh this week end then! At least the Welsh clubs managed 3 wins out of 4 & Dragons lost 6 players on the morning of the match (Covid)
That’s a joke, Wales in top tier - Ireland more likely to reach that level before next RWC
Wales have made three World Cup semi Finals, Ireland on the other hand have never been past a quarter-final, wake up get yourself a Rugby Union brain before you comment.
Nope. I still can believe it sorry.
Wales.....A Top seed team.
This report must be a joke.
Wales.....A Top seed team.
This report must be a joke.
Can Scotland please draw them
we finished fourth and were in the top four teams in the world for at least the previous year and a half. If in2023 Wales win the 6 Nations before the World Cup would you say again not a top seed team ? The seedings should be from world cup positions/results and the draw for next world cup one month after the previous world cup held
There's only ever been 8 winners of the football WC and that's been going since 1950.
Loving this stuff from the Anglo's... it's going to be sweet!
I know. It's like when we somehow ended up 1 in the rankings, the annoyance it caused some was most entertaining.
Question is whether you honestly think you’re one of the top four teams in the world at the moment. If you’ve watched Wales play this year I can’t see how you could.
The ridiculous approach of World Rugby to having the draw three years before the event has made a mockery of the World Cup groups before.
Now, presented via Covid with a great opportunity to do the sensible thing and delay the draw, they decide not only to continue with the draw but base it on rankings that are already a year out of date!
This is embarrassing for world rugby.
Now, presented via Covid with a great opportunity to do the sensible thing and delay the draw, they decide not only to continue with the draw but base it on rankings that are already a year out of date!
This is embarrassing for world rugby.
The only time Wales fans accepted the world rankings was when they were Number 1. They dismissed them almost immediately when they slipped down the rankings.
Wales you can't be serious the poorest team in the uk by a distance, Scotland and Argentina in group 3 really. Far to far away to decide these things.
Scotland are better than this Wales and only need to consistency and some dxtra strength in depth to challenge for the Six Nations again
yawn......usual myopic comment.....Sco have stuffed Georgia every time they have played them....I recall in the 1990's calls from some Eng fans & pundits to have Eng/Fra jettison the then 5 Nations competition, and play only NZ/Aus/SA. Since then Ire/Wal have won more Grand Slams than Eng. ! 6 Nations needs Sco and the revenue 6N weekends in Edinburgh bring...ever more so now....
RWC board doing what it does best....making a complete fool of itself
To put it in context, on current situation Wales are a 3rd tier team. France, Aus, Ireland and Scotland (arguably) are all better and above
Do the RWC not realise how utterly incompetent and unprofessional this is, especially after the debacle of the cancelled games at the last WC. Watch the cooperative strategy fail!
To put it in context, on current situation Wales are a 3rd tier team. France, Aus, Ireland and Scotland (arguably) are all better and above
Do the RWC not realise how utterly incompetent and unprofessional this is, especially after the debacle of the cancelled games at the last WC. Watch the cooperative strategy fail!
Totally agree. The standard cut off should have been used, or the draw delayed until the spring
These rankings are always iffy. The teams to avoid (as usual) are Ireland, Aus, France and Argentina.
SA prob want to avoid Japan though ??
SA prob want to avoid Japan though ??
Why does rugby have such a complete absence of common sense when running competitions? It is hard to know which is the most ridiculous, deciding the seeds for a world cup over 3 years out from the competition, or the ludicrous European Cup format.
There are a lot of former players on the IRB board. Perhaps the prevalence of rugby-induced neurological problems is greater than even Messrs Thomson, Popham and Lipman allege. Unfortunately, IRB has a very long-standing history of ineptitude.
Because they don’t want to endanger the huge money spinning Lions tours.
If WC rankings were at risk home nations would be weaker due to players being on Lions duty & whoever was hosting lions on that trip wouldn’t be able to play other internationals & earn ranking points
If WC rankings were at risk home nations would be weaker due to players being on Lions duty & whoever was hosting lions on that trip wouldn’t be able to play other internationals & earn ranking points
Obviously a lot of you football supporters on here do not understand the final positions from the last World cup have a bearing on the next World cup rankings.
I know. Give them more than a couple of lines to read and they’ve reached the end of their attention span.
Removed
RWC board doing what it does best....making a complete fool of itself
To put it in context, on current situation Wales are a 3rd tier team. France, Aus, Ireland and Scotland (arguably) are all better and above
Do the RWC not realise how utterly incompetent and unprofessional this is, especially after the debacle of the cancelled games at the last WC. Watch the cooperative strategy fail!
To put it in context, on current situation Wales are a 3rd tier team. France, Aus, Ireland and Scotland (arguably) are all better and above
Do the RWC not realise how utterly incompetent and unprofessional this is, especially after the debacle of the cancelled games at the last WC. Watch the cooperative strategy fail!
Having watched Glasgow today that may not end as well as you think.
6N will give us a better idea
6N will give us a better idea
To give the SRU their due when they concocted their plan to become world champs I didn't realise it literally meant that. Good luck the McBoks
Seedings should be decided on World Cup positions when the next World Cup draw is made. And the draw made one month after the final.
If I understand you correctly Wales would still be in the top group. I agree with all who say that we don’t deserve it at the moment.
Scotland have as much chance of winning the Six Nations as you have at curing your dyslexia.
I don’t know about challenging for the Six Nations. But you’re right, we’re definitely better than Wales. They’re too reliant on English cast offs.
So they’ll challenge for the 6N if they’re better then.
we finished fourth and were in the top four teams in the world for at least the previous year and a half. If in2023 Wales win the 6 Nations before the World Cup would you say again not a top seed team ? The seedings should be from world cup positions/results and the draw for next world cup one month after the previous world cup held
Silly having wales with the elite , but like previously said Gatland a legend .
Hopefully we get an easy draw like Ireland in band 2, Scotland in band 3.
Wish we could play Wales as well but somehow they’re in our band?
Wish we could play Wales as well but somehow they’re in our band?
About the same period before the 2019 world cup South Africa were ranked 9th in the world.
I'm fairy sure South Africa are the world champions too. ;)
They've never been lower than 7th, so clearly not correct. They were 3rd at the start of 2016 and had fallen to 6th by the end of it.
Yes, but Wales are nowhere near as good as SA. Not sure why Wales fans keep comparing the two sides.
Can Scotland please draw them
Exeter would beat most teams: including Wales.
That’s a joke, Wales in top tier - Ireland more likely to reach that level before next RWC
Made 3 RWC semi finals, and lost them all. And lost the 3rd place play offs too.
Not much of a record to crow about.
Not much of a record to crow about.
Scotland are better than this Wales and only need to consistency and some dxtra strength in depth to challenge for the Six Nations again
Judging by this and your other comments, you're a bit of a hypocrite, aren't you.
Here he is, English rugby living in his head rent free......for ever. Love it.we don’t need to say anything just wait for this one to start as it’s always there in his mind lol.........
Silly having wales with the elite , but like previously said Gatland a legend .
Hopefully we get an easy draw like Ireland in band 2, Scotland in band 3.
Wish we could play Wales as well but somehow they’re in our band?
Wish we could play Wales as well but somehow they’re in our band?
Question is whether you honestly think you’re one of the top four teams in the world at the moment. If you’ve watched Wales play this year I can’t see how you could.
I'm fairy sure South Africa are the world champions too. ;)
Are we? Who knew?
Wales are the no 1 ranked side in the world and rightly so . I can’t see anyone beating Wales
Here he is, welsh rugby living in his head rent free......for ever. Love it.we don’t need to say anything just wait for this one to start as it’s always there in his mind lol
Au contraire, mon choux, Wales is currently ranked 9th in the world. As for potential conquerors, my aged memory only goes back to February, but since then England (twice), France, Ireland (twice) and Scotland have all beaten Wales - perhaps your back was turned at the various times, which would be understandable given the spineless performances of the men in red.
Are we? Who knew?
Hopefully we get an easy draw like Ireland in band 2, Scotland in band 3.
Wish we could play Wales as well but somehow they’re in our band?
Wish we could play Wales as well but somehow they’re in our band?
yawn......usual myopic comment.....Sco have stuffed Georgia every time they have played them....I recall in the 1990's calls from some Eng fans & pundits to have Eng/Fra jettison the then 5 Nations competition, and play only NZ/Aus/SA. Since then Ire/Wal have won more Grand Slams than Eng. ! 6 Nations needs Sco and the revenue 6N weekends in Edinburgh bring...ever more so now....
Wait, two nations have won more trophies than one nation?
Wow, mind blowing.
Wow, mind blowing.
Question is whether you honestly think you’re one of the top four teams in the world at the moment. If you’ve watched Wales play this year I can’t see how you could.
He’ll have retired by then, universally acknowledged by rugby experts as one of the all-time greats.
I know. It's like when we somehow ended up 1 in the rankings, the annoyance it caused some was most entertaining.
I think many of us thought it was a freak of the ranking system but who are we to argue?